I only got started playing this game from reading this thread. Out of sheer boredom on sunday I tried playing this game (with fake money) from the link that phantom gave. I've spent the last 6 days doing practically nothing else but playing this game. And I have to say it's so much easier than playing the market! I think rather than poker being good training for the beginning trader, that it's the other way around completely. The market is the toughest training that makes this poker game seem as easy as picking your nose (and almost as much fun!). The stock market isn't gambling? Compared to this Hold-em Poker game (which I had never even consciously heard of before sunday), it is the stock market that is the real gamble. When I have a hand of cards, sure I don't know exactly which cards the other players have, but I know exactly what cards I am holding, and what they are worth. And the other 45 cards that are not shown to you are always the same set of cards, you can easily calculate which cards are potentially available at any moment besides your own. Stocks? You never know what they're going to do. "But there's news reports out! It should be so simple." Except that you never really know how the market is going to react to the reports. The poker cards aren't affected by Alan Greenspan, or an explosion somewhere, or a trade embargo. There's no intraday vs. overnight margin maintenance. No PDT rules or uptick rules or unbundling rules or floor specialists. There's no longterm vs. short term strategy, each hand dealt is a brand new hand. You get a brand new hand every 1-10 minutes, at the longest. With the stock market you get about 3 or 4 hands each day, 5 days a week. You have to try to synch yourself to the 6½ hours a day that it does its main business, and trading off-hours is less reliable, less liquid. The online casinos are running 168 hours a week, 7 days. Whenever you're ready for them, they're available. All you really need to become profitable with the poker, is the patience to fold each hand until you are dealt the cards you want. Most players lose because they don't have that patience. After staring at the stock market 6½ hours a day 5 days a week, for the last two years, and never being able to know for certain what it's going to do in the next month, week, day, hour, or even 5 minutes, waiting a whole 30 minutes to get my pair of Aces or Ace and King is so incredibly simple! That 30 minutes seems like forever to most card players. Trying to trade the markets is excellent conditioning to make this poker seem like child's play. If you don't get the cards you want, just fold, and wait for the next round. Once you get the cards you want, play them full steam. It really really works. It also makes some difference whether you're at a 10 player table or a 5 player table. Your strategy has to be adjusted. You can win with bluffs on a smaller table much more often. At a 10 player table, the odds are that someone there has the winning cards in their hand, so you'd be better off folding if your hand turns out valueless.
This thread got me taking another look at online poker. Ive always been concerned about security, cheating, etc. but have been doing a lot of reading that has eased most of my concerns. I opened up an account with Neteller and made a small deposit then transferred it to the poker site so if somebody does access either account they wouldnt get much. Ive only got a couple of hundred bucks at risk. From what I read their software is pretty secure now and collusion is about the only way to cheat and I dont think they would bother the lower limit games because it wouldnt be worth their time. Played for the first time this morning and really enjoyed it. This is the perfect solution for someone like me to keep me out of the market when things are slow.
Another poker fanatic is born! I like your observations about trading being good training for poker. BEWARE, however, thinking that it is easy. As you move up to higher stakes tables, the competition gets tougher and tougher. Everyone for the most part is now playing good basic strategy. At times people will go on "tilt" and play poorly, but you can't count on that. Good and experienced players are able to accurately guess what cards that you are holding. They have watched you play and can predict your reactions, using them against you. You will think that you have them beat and they reraise or check raise you on the river. Dayum! Then all of the sudden you're afraid of this player and he's able to scare you off of potentially good hands. So, now through magnificent play, showing some strong hands and maybe a weak hand here and there, the player in the above paragraph thinks that he has you pegged, but it's really you who have him! Poker is GREAT!
It's taking me about a week to complete the process of opening the NETeller account and getting the ACH transfer credited to it. I'm glad of that delay, because it forces me to use the Play Money tables, and I am getting lots and lots of practice before ever putting real money down. I would really recommend to anyone to develop your game in the Play Money tables before playing with real money. Like paper trading, the Play Money tables are not exactly the same as playing with real money, but only because of psychology. The actual mechanics of the game in the tables is exactly the same, including the house cut ("Rake"), which is like having a paper trading system that takes broker commissions into account. As far as them having me pegged, well I have a poker face of my own: once I decide to play a hand, I don't fuss over each turn. I just hit Raise with practically no hesitation. I do this consistently, and the other players cannot tell whether I am bluffing or not. Especially in the 5 player tables, it can really freak them out, and they fold. That's also part of my winning strategy. If you keep raising the stakes right from the start, it creates a much bigger pot. The pot is much bigger in the rounds I play, and when I win I win big. When I lose to a slightly better hand, that player benefits from my being in that round, but my loss is much less than his gain, because most of the pot was built up by the other players by forcing them to raise early on. Also, if they can't read if I'm bluffing or not, sometimes that lures them in thinking I may be bluffing when I'm not, and increases my pot. Personally I could never keep a poker face (another reason why going to a physical casino would not be to my advantage), but playing online they can't see or hear you. You can sit there laughing at the other players, shouting "hah hah, I've got the Ace!", laughing at your cards, and to the other players you're maintaining an absolute poker face.
"Were you playing for real money? How did you fund the account if you did?" hii a_ooiioo_a Yes, playing for real money. Funded the account easily with a $500 limit Visa card, but I am in Canada and some others have suggested problems doing this from the US. Trading in preparation for poker... I LIKE IT!! Who knows, maybe you will find that Hold-em is your true calling! Nice point about the house being analogous to the brokers. I'd say "Best of luck to all those like easyrider who are trying this", but of course luck doesn't have much to do with it
You guys have got to be kidding me. Don't you understand that the proprietors have shills in almost every money hand and that these shills see all cards and know exactly what cards are next? Do you really think that these offshore gambling shops can make enough of a profit just on the rake? Do you think that they would not try to enhance their profits in a riskless manner. Think of them as the specialists of the gaming world and stop betting against the house. That is all. BigMike
"Do you really think that these offshore gambling shops can make enough of a profit just on the rake? " Aha!! This is the kind of post I want to see. So, BigMike - the answer is yes, I had thought that they could make enough money off the rake to make the biz go. This was after a very cursory observation of some of the higher limit games where the rake is consistent, and some calculations involving the number of raked games/hour. You obviously feel differently, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out I was wrong. The fact is that I don't KNOW for certain that ANYONE is consistently profitable at these tables. Does anyone else have any comment on BigMike's post? I do feel some people will get something out of the exercise, regardless of the outcome. Personally, I am still comfortably in and playing regularly on a $100 stake (see my first post). It has been a few weeks and no, I am still not breaking even... as in trading, my initial losses require large percentage gains in capital just to get to the breakeven point, but again, my losses don't seem to be the result of correct play which is repeatedly beaten. It's the result of emotional or technical mistakes. For instance, the other day, some guy started badgering me at the table. I got caught up in an exchange with this guy. Before this started, I was up to $28 from $20, and playing well. I went down to $18 while filling this guy in re: certain points of etiquette - undoubtedly this is exactly what he was trying to get me to do! A great lesson in psychology. On another session, I watched a guy just betting 'horribly'... all of a sudden I started breaking my own rules because he was raising and raising and I had seen him raise with nothing in the past... so I try to call him when my rules say CLEARLY that I shouldn't... just sick of seeing him win with 'bad' play. Guess who was really playing badly in that situation. I would love to hear more about this. Perhaps for those who are suspicious, a club game is the only option.
The point is that the games are rigged by having a house player in many/all money hands who sees all cards and knows all cards to come. It's not too difficult to imagine and not too tough to program. Think about who runs these shops - it sure ain't the boy scouts! And why would those guys stop short of cheating at a little card game? That is all. BigMike
At derivatives trading firm Susquehanna, supposedly one of the more sophisticated options trading firms, all traders are trained poker players. The comparison of poker and trading is mentioned in Schwager's New Market Wizards, too, if I remember correctly (Jeff Yass).
"The point is that the games are rigged by having a house player in many/all money hands who sees all cards and knows all cards to come. It's not too difficult to imagine and not too tough to program." BigMike OK, I got the point about having a house player in the money hands... I see how that would prevent anyone from winning consistently or at all. I just wanted to mention my 'raked game calculations' in order to point out how I _thought_ the on-line casino could make money legitimately. I was essentially replying to your question 'Do you really think the casinos could make money on the rake alone?" I had thought the answer was "yes". As you point out, though, this wouldn't stop them from increasing their take by any means possible. The people who run these sites? Man, I can only imagine... men with hard noses?? With experience in osteal manipulation? Not that I don't believe you about this - in fact the opposite, I am a confirmed skeptic myself... Thanks for posting - these are the kinds of contrarian posts I like.