Cheating is Cheating....whether it was thru Fixing the game ( which has yet to be proven) or using a corked bat ( which has been proven ) ....
Rose's play and playing record should be the sole criteria for judging him in or not in the Hall. Dishonored the game. Give me a break! He has over 4000 hits. Where's the dishonor in that? If you can prove that his gambling compromised his play, then he was actually a greater player than we think. Denying Rose entry is just a bullshit demand for atonement, and Rose is right to tell his naysayers to go piss off. While America wants to go Judeo-Christian apeshit on Rose, may the first one who has sinned cast his stone upon Rose. Silence...hmmmm.
No - we're banning a guy who was proven (and now after all these years finally admitted) that he violated the most important abolision in baseball, not to mention a key clause of his contracts (with clear and definitive repercussions). As far as Sosa - none of the investigations could show that single known instance was anything more than an accident - they even cut open or Xrayed a bunch of the bats he'd used to set records to verify they were not corked. If there any of those bats had been corked, Sosa would have been history. Sosa was also tested for steroid or other barred drug use and was found clean. I do remember that McGuire was supposedly using some kind of herbal supplement (that was not restricted) that apparently had steroidal-like effects on muscle mass buildup - but he too was tested for banned drugs and found clean. You can't justify Rose's gross and repeated disregard for THE cardinal rule (and his contracts) with guesses and inuendo about others. And his stats don't justifiy ignoring his knowing breach of a key contractual term and the biggest and most well known rule in baseball. Are drug users also permanently banned? No, unfortunately the rules haven't been set up that way. Should they be? Yes. But their currently not being so does not mitigate Rose's repeated actions that he knew would result in a permanent ban if he were caught. He was arrogant enough to think he wouldn't be caught (even using the phone at the ballpark that went through an operator and which had a phone log kept to place calls to his bookie during the games) and he was a big enough ass to spend years continuing to publically deny it and slandering the Commish and the investigators. The sole time to have talked about a possibility of a limited ban (that would have allowed him in the Hall) was if he'd admitted he had a gambling problem when he got caught, gone into a treatment program, separated himself from all gambling, and thrown himself on the mercy of baseball. 14 years of vehement lying and slandering those who caught him suddenly followed by a grudging admission (in conjunction with a book) doesn't warrant voiding the standing rules. Stats not withstanding - he pissed on the game and the game should piss on him. If they even consider letting him in, it should be only postumously and only after any other players (like Santo) who should be in the HofF get there first.
What you say can't be in dispute. Cheating is indeed cheating. And I agree with you that Rose, despite his actions deserves to be in the Hall. There can be no argument whatsoever that he earned his way in with his accomplishments on the field. I doubt anyone holds as many records as Rose (possibly Babe Ruth?). No other sport is about pure numbers the way baseball is. Not close. Baseball's rules do not change (with the exception of the DH). So it is the only major sport in which comparisons and records can hold up and be meaningful over time. It takes the same talent today to hit 50 home runs or steal a hundred bases or bat .400 today as it took a hundred years ago. This is VERY different than in other sports. Football and basketball are so different even year to year (let alone decade to decade....and in baseball ONLY can we talk century to century). Baseball is America's constant. It is the only thing with true continuity. This may hold true even going beyond sports. A big part of why baseball is so great. Why it is part of the fabric of America. The argument that Rose was capable of, and MAY have fixed games and affected the outcome is pure speculation. You can say the same about any player or manager. Allegations mean nothing. While Rose may be a more likely candidate to have fixed a game than Willie Mays or Hank Aaron, this should not be a factor at all. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Keeping Rose out of the Hall of fame would be ridiculous. But delaying his eligibility is something he deserves. This is a righteous decision IMO. Unlike Rose, Sosa was not banned from baseball. Maybe it's because of who they are. Highly paid and talented athletes create their own worlds. And then they have to live in them. Sosa is not Rose. Sosa will get more slack. Despite the fact he was caught cheating he is still not an embarrassment to baseball the way Rose is. And the truth of the matter is that Sosa's story isn't completely beyond reason. All those bats. And just the one with cork. There is no rule against using a corked bat in batting practice. So maybe it's true that he just made an error and was extremely unlucky. We give every ballplayer the benefit of the doubt. Right or wrong. Look no further than Strawberry (one of the saddest stories ever). Rose can die knowing that someday he will have a spot in the Hall alongside some other great athletes that were not model citizens. Lots of them. Its just a matter of if he will live to see the day. I don't think he deserves to. And I am pretty "liberal" about things like this. But Rose really does deserve the punishment he is getting. (IMHO). Which reminds me.....I can't understand why I am not the Commissioner of Baseball. I would be great at it!! Peace, RS
has never had stringent rules regarding drug use, using performance enhancing drugs, etc The players union has simply fought this every step of the way and the League has caved in to the players association every single time! Even the new drug policy regarding steroid use is a total joke, especially compared to various Olympic sports like swimming, track and field, cycling, etc. I don't think that you can apply any kind of logic that would say that Rose should be let into the Hall of Fame because there are others out there that have used performance enhancing drugs, blah, blah, blah. . . The rational being that baseball has never really cared about drug use. The fact of the matter is that Rose broke the one and only rule in Baseball that major league Baseball really CARES about, and that is: Betting on the Game You might not see it that way. But Baseball does, and that's what counts.
You guys are living in yesteryear and are completely unrealistic. Gambling was a threat to baseball long before the free agent era and has long since ceased to be any threat. For 30 years at least, and probably longer, players have earned enough not to be bought by gamblers. When was the last gambling scandal in big money pro sports, where players threw a game? Rose got a 2.1 million contract in 1978. His gambling was a personal issue. And do you think Rose could have laid a bet with any bookie on the planet against the Reds in the 1976 World Series? How about the 1975 series when he was MVP? Do you think Rose would have bet against the Reds? Its a total farce and hypocrisy to punish Rose just because he thumbed his nose at the establishment. Since when is a gambling a sin? States enact gambling to raise revenue. Why is it bad that Rose gambled while he played? Because of a potential theoretical conflict? Show when he threw a game and I'll concede the argument. This is not about gambling, it's about Rose's being in denial, lack of humility, and failure to seek redemption and forgiveness from the public. If he had gone on Barbara Walters after 6 weeks in a program and begged forgiveneness, swore off gambling, declared he never bet on a game he had played in "So help me God", he would be in the Hall now. The Public and baseball establishment expect players to shuffling and smiling Amos and Andy clowns with hay in thier hair. That's why they love McGuire and hate Bonds. Baseball players are not saints. No group is made up of saints. They collectively all have all the personal foibles all the baseball writers have, all the congeressmen have, and all of your mothers have.
Well said. Pete Rose the player was great. He was the most prolific hitter of all time. Rose was a great player who deserves regocnition for his great play alongside the other greatest players of the game, including Shoeless Joe Jackson. Rose the father, Rose the manager, Rose the gambler are separate issues IMO.
No doubt that the "threat" to baseball posed by gambling has ceased to exist. Long ago. Same is true in any major sport. Rookies who get called up in September for a few games make more dollars now than Babe Ruth ever made ($300K min.). That whole Black Sox premise is long archaic. Did Rose "thumb his nose at the establishment"? Yeah, but it was more than that. He told the establishment to go fuck itself. There are times when you can get away with that, and times you cannot. Rose was too stupid to evaluate his predicament and he blew it. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. So yeah, he could have gone on Barbara Walters and said all those things. And been forgiven. But that isn't who Rose is. Humility? Rose? in the same sentence? Nope. Did he have to be an Amos and Andy clown? A Stepin Fetchit? Not at all. But Rose wouldn't do anything that didn't pay. Including going on Barbara Walters' show. If she would have given him a few million to appear, he would have. That is how he ticked. Things just did not work out for him his way. His way wasn't in the running when he got busted for gambling. Going on Barbara Walters would have paid big for him. He just was too foolish to know it. He thought the only way you could get paid was in cash or with a check. That's Pete. If Pete Rose were ANYONE BUT Pete Rose at the time, he would have skated. The guy was a piece of the mosaic that was America for more than 20 years. All he had to do was hang his head for five seconds. He would have been forgiven just about anything. But he could not be humble. He wasn't made that way. He needed a brain transplant at the time, and that wasn't available. He was doomed the moment he was ratted out. Dumb schmuck! He was gifted, famous and rich. Then he fucked up. He got caught doing the one single thing he couldn't get away with. Yet he still could have redeemed himself. He was a Baseball God....America loves their heroes, and he had a "get out of jail free" card. He refused to use it: a simple acknowledgement and a simple apology. The American public is very forgiving. Just don't get head in the Oval Office if that is where you work, and don't gamble on baseball if that is where you work. And if you do, and you get caught, don't lie about it. Because the American public isn't THAT forgiving. Pete Rose made his decisions. Even after he was caught, he could have played his cards right and forever been "Charlie Hustle". Instead he chose to be "O.J. Lite". What a dumb shit! If I could make a list of guys I would want at a poker table, he would be right on top. Peace, RS
Specul8tor made a great post. Why should pete care. Steriods have made me not care. Pete is an idiot and probably got in a jam an bet to lose. We do not know. Did he coach for the season long grind or the immediate win. Did he coach to beat the spread. Give him the hall of fame it does not mean much since steroids anyway.