penalties are not taxes

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by Mav88, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. Mav88


    Well first you have to understand that even Roberts knows that, for some goddamned reason he thought he needed to make sure Obamacare passed. Ginsberg knew thsi simple piece of logic, she actually 'dissented with the majority' on the commerce clause because even she didn't call it a tax . Either Roberts flipped suddenly and made shit up, or not even the liberals agreed with him- take your pick.

    Ginsburg's argument itself about commerce is dangerous:

    does she not understand the word compel? The Air Force buys their planes on the open market, they don't compel anyone to build airplanes. I think these people are just too old, lifetime terms need to be abolished.

    Roberts doesn't agree with Ginsburg and vice versa, so Roberts says the penalty is a tax. Are penalties taxes?

    Roberts says its just like buying gas and paying tax, but why would buying gas be penalized? Penalties are to discourage something, not raise revenue, but it is a bad example since buying gas is optional. Even more specious then would be calling the income tax a penalty, why in the hell would anyone want to discourage making money? Did Roberts realize that and stop? he could have easily moved from gas tax to income tax.

    I can think of a gov't penalty for inaction. Where I live, if I refuse to cut my grass then the city will come do it and bill me $50. We even have a community hotline where you can turn in your neighbor. The city mandates that lawns be mowed, completing the parallel. But is that a tax?

    If I mow my grass myself, it takes about $1.00 worth of grass and say $3.00 depreciation on my mower. You would have to calculate my labor cost as well. I do it in my free time when markets are closed (opportunity cost = 0) and I enjoy it so how to put a price on it? Easy, what would I pay you to do it? probably about $10 due to fact I don't think it is very hard.

    If the city charged $10 to cut my grass, I'd probably think abouty letting them do it each time, in fact I'd turn myself in sometimes. The fact is that the penalty is designed to discourage that behavior by being high, which is the whole point.

    If on the other hand we had a compulsory 'lawn tax' where we all have to pay a tax and government lawn mowers come over and mow the grass, then what are the chances such a tax would be $50 a pop? It could be higher or lower but the fact is that it would not be designed to be punative and most likely it would be lower. The very nature of the two are not equivalent, and if the cost of service is the same or higher than the cost of the penalty then it's not a penalty by definition. Roberts has lost his mind, nobody agrees with him (except piezoe), not even liberal judges or the democrats who emphatically stated this was not a tax.

    I agree with the democrats, however Roberts did have some integrity, he admitted it was unconstitutional under the commerce clause. What a tragedy.
  2. I can't believe so many here are so misinformed. Look, if you have insurance great, no changes.

    If you don't, I suppose you expect me, and other taxpayers to cover your medical/emergency rooms? I don't want to pay more taxes to cover those, who are essentially welfare recipients, who choose to take a free ride on my dime. Make them pay a fine or buy insurance. Sounds about as conservative as you can get. But, if you prefer collecting welfare on my dime, go for it. I don't like it.
  3. Mav88


    wtf? did you even read my post?
  4. he's not reading posts or can't seem to understand that taxes are being raised to fund this. Reality is the providers won't cover pre existing conditions or anyone who obviously can't afford the premium, so instead of forcing them to through law (which i would still disagree with), obamacare shifts the unprofitable burden of insuring the uninsured to the taxpayer.. just like medicare/medicaid. Obamacare raises taxes. It is a fact.
  5. Mav88


    I agree, to think that just becasue you are insured now means nothing changes is pure fanatsy, but that wasn't the scope of my argument.

    The reason democrats could not call it a tax is that then they could ram this through in the slimy partisan slimy that they did. The reason Roberts had to call a penalty equal to a tax is that is the only way he could justify it to himself. I'm taking issue with Roberts illogic.
  6. I agree with you that my post didn't really fit well in this thread. indythink is working my nerves though and i felt the need to correct him in his (intentionally) flawed statements that nothing is going to change for people who are already insured.

    I also agree with your argument, I don't get Roberts justification. this ruling though opens the door for Congress in new ways.. whether it is called a penalty or tax, the govt can now require us to buy something or pay a penalty/tax. I can't think of any other instances where this is true.
  7. 377OHMS



    Hmm you are probably right about that. The guy doing the BS academic research lol.
  8. that's my bet, because of the new handle and fake conservative nonsense.
  9. Mav88


    Think about the bizarre and backdoor way this all went down, ACA passed with reconciliation, and then survived with an extremely tortured bit of law by Roberts. Roberts' theory was alone, the court by 8-1 did not concur with his reasoning. This law fails if it isn't a tax, Roberts was clear on that since he sided with conservatives on commerce.

    The only people I have seen defend him here are piezoe and Ricter here, albeit lamely. This is not the way a landmark piece of legislation should become law of the land, but I don't expect the left to care since after the ends justify the means in religion....

    Roberts said that it isn't a mandate when all you have to do is pay a non-criminal penalty collected by the IRS, therefore it is a tax. Roberts also said the penalty must be reasonable in order to be a tax (so who gets to say what is reasonable?). Therefore having the city cut my grass is simply a tax (a penalty for non action on a mandatory behavior collected by a gov't)... I'm starting to believe the medication theory.

    Let's say for the sake of argument that this is a tax, or even as piezoe calls it, a tax deduction if I do what they say I should do. Then congress never voted on it as such, and it is illegal.
  10. #10     Jun 29, 2012