WET, totally agree, agnostic is the the most sensible approach anyone who claims that there DEFINITELY is or is not God is making an assertion for which there can be no proof why worry, not to mention kill/die, for something about which we can not remotely gain a reasonable clue? BTW, i am not saying that what YOU believe, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu...etc including atheist, is wrong or that you should even agree with me. Each person's religious beliefs are their own and I would strongly defend the right of anyone to disagree with me. Just please don't go around killing people to prove your god is the best one, thank you very much.
I think an accurate analogy would be that if i saw a man standing in the middle of the street with one thumb up his butt while hitting himself in the head with a hammer...it may be prudent to decide not to attempt reasoning with him. BTW, I acknowledge jem to be the most articulate of his 'camp' on this thread, FWIW. But jem is twisting people's words, e.g. no one ever said we should "apologize" to or "have coffee" with the terrorists. Many of the others have NOTHING intelligent to say, they appear not to have read/understood the posts of Nick, vvv, jaan, CaroKann, et al, and they have resorted to simplistic and immature name calling and personal attacks. It's not a competition, Buck, it is only a discussion....
all predictions are absolutely WORTHLESS. here is why... make many many predictions to many many people. when you guessed right, go back to the people you told the correct guess to and make a big deal about it. don't go back to the people you told the wrong guess to. also, out of all the predictors in history, you have to remember that SOMEONE HAS TO END UP BEING THE MOST CORRECT...even if by luck. if we had a stock picking contest with a lot of people and the rules were only to pick stocks randomly, there would be some people who would get amazing results. if it was kept a secret that they were picked randomly, people would think the winners were great at picking stocks. LAW OF AVERAGES
I am a Christian. I believe in God the father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I also believe that Satan exits, and there are not many things IT would like better than to have a bunch of true Moslems, who love God, and a bunch of true Christians, who love God, and a bunch of true Jews, who love God, killing each other. When I hear of certain terrorists (not true Moslems IMHO) calling the U.S "the great satan" it makes me think of the saying "A thief always accuses others of stealing". Rigel
Jaan and Roger2, great summing up, also thx to vvv and Carokann et al for your contributions, but thx also to all others, if at the very minimum this served to help some get sthg out of their systems then we'll have accomplished sthg positive, and maybe we've even planted a seed here or there, maybe even along the lines of Classical Greek thought that was so brilliant because it probed and examined and questioned everything, including it's right to question, to get at the eternal WHY and WHAT FOR. While I'm not going to comment on religion apart from saying that whatever people choose to believe or not believe in should be subject to only their personal and unrestricted free choice, the Golden Rule always provides pretty decent and holistic measure for pretty much most individual and collective actions. Also, allow me a couple of last quotes: It is expedient that there should be Gods and, since it is expedient, let us think that there are Gods. - Ovid - and If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. - Voltaire - However, one wouldn't do badly to keep in mind the capacity of the Classical world for polytheism with corresponding tolerance, and it's somewhat unfavourable contrast with subsequent monotheism and it's corresponding intolerance. After all, Religious Persecution, Evangelism, Moral Majorities, Crusades et al were all but unknown in antiquity prior to the Roman Caesar NERO, whose instrumentalised antipathy against the Christians was however occasioned by anything but religion. Anyway, as the general acquis is that they want us to end the discussion on this today, this is going to be my last post on the subject, and I'll just wish everybody a good week. So long Wet, just read your post after mine, I agree with your and Rogers assessment on that issue, I suppose I was just trying to say that whatever belief system you choose to adopt you shouldn't misinterpret that as an instrument that gives you a divine (if you believe in a divine entity of whatever denomination) or self appointed (if you choose to be eg an atheist) right to persecute those that have differing beliefs. That is where the Golden Rule has the potential to provide a basic and generally acceptable set of values that should be amenable to peoples of all belief sets - let everybody do, believe or just think what and how they want to, as long as they don't harm you by doing that, and as long as they don't encroach on your rights to do the same, and treat em as you'd want them to treat you. Inaccurate analogy, but anyway, sort of polytheism in a largely monotheist world, if you will.
Nick, The funny thing is that Ovid's and Voltaire's comment could be true and STILL it be true that there's a god. One (Voltaire/Ovid's comment) is a statement about human psychology and the other (the fact that there's a god, if there is one) is a statement about the world itself. Since facts about human psychology do not affect or entail truths about the world, Ovid/Voltaire can be right and there still be a God. Wet
Only micro-evolution is a fact, macro-evolution is not, if you BELIEVE in macro-evolution, you are religous, whether you accept it or not.
"anyone who claims that there DEFINITELY is or is not God is making an assertion for which there can be no proof " I reiterate: There is no credible evidence for the belief in the existence of a supernatural entity. I can rationally assert that a "GOD" does not exist because of the lack of credible proof just as I can rationally assert that "Gargoyles" do not exist either for the same reasons. Rational beings (such as you should all aspire to become) do not believe in that which no plausible proof can be found. I confidently reassert : THERE IS NO "GOD". Bucky Lee