Discussion in 'Psychology' started by darkhorse, Oct 15, 2002.

  1. darkhorse,

    you continue to amaze me. yes, it is from richard ashcroft's verve. very good to see you back, my friend !!


    #11     Oct 15, 2002
  2. I would think that like any virtue, patience has to be learned by practice. It won't necessarily be easy but what thing worth having is? In trading its got to be one of the most important attributes so its definitely worth it. I know I've left so many $$ on the table because i wasn't either patient enough to wait for the move (chickened out even before my stop was hit) or got out too soon (with 2 points when the move went on to make 10).

    I don't think we can expect to have the wise patience that JCom is referring to straight off the bat - it may start with the fake kind where we are restraining ourself from acting out our fears and emotions. Gradually as we witness those emotions come and go, they lose their power and then we can attain real patience. Its most likely to come with experience.


    #12     Oct 15, 2002
  3. Fine line between "restraint" and "patience". You really think the the benefits are in equanimity(right word?)??

    "Restraint" lacks the understanding that perpetuates the "patience", hollow almost...

    Restraint ----> Rigid, forced and artificial
    Patience-----> Fluid, natural and genuine

    -------> Lord, lead us from the unreal to the real :)

    PEACE my friend,
    #13     Oct 15, 2002
  4. not sure how to answer your question jcom (uggh, that reminds me too much of 'j-lo'). did u mean to ask "are the benefits equal(ish)?"
    if so, for all practical, "numbers-based" purposes they are. in both cases, from the markets perspective, no action was taken. so it matters little whether that non-action was a result of patience, restraint or an armed holdup.
    (here's a tip, anytime you wanna use a word you're not sure of, pop into and get the lowdown :))

    "restraint---> rigid, forced and artificial"

    i'm curious, what would action would you prescribe to a person whose "natural" instinct is to act (as opposed to being patient)? is he supposed to just throw his hands up in defeat exclaiming, "arghh, i'm just not patient. so since my "natural" inclination is to act, i must; otherwise i'm being artificial..."

    the difference between restraint and patience isn't simply the lack of intellectual understanding on the part of restraint (among other differences). anyone can know what to do; even be able to give a formal dissertation on what action (or lack thereof) is required.

    if patience is a skill that can be learnt, and not some inherent charateristic of personality, then what is so unreasonable about there being a period where such action (or inaction, in the case of patience) feels uncomfortable and difficult (or "artificial")? surely the way to develop a skill is to do that skill. your summation,inadvertently, suggests that either a person has patience or he doesn't.
    #14     Oct 16, 2002
  5. He who floats down stream
    Will see all his enemies
    Waiting on the banks
    #15     Oct 16, 2002
  6. ElCubano


    Not having patience from a trading perpective may really just be fear (in disguise)....of giving anything back $$$$$.....once in a trade
    #16     Oct 16, 2002
  7. Danny Boy ohhhhhh Danny Boy (you like that song?),

    Danny is there really such a thing as "non-action" or is that just our dualistic mode of thought casting yet another illusion???

    As products of the human condition are we not bound to the inescapable pendelum of action?

    Is our fate and/or condition any different than that of fleas on a hot griddle?? He jumps ----> he must fall ----> he must jump...

    As I was sitting quietly doing nothing yesterday afternoon as she chopped around -- was I not acting?

    Do we even have a choice in this matter??

    Is a Zen monk sitting quietly in Za-zen meditation acting? Or is he not acting and how would we distinguish between the two?

    What constitutes an action?

    Can we avoid acting as traders anymore than we can avoid losses?

    Danny I never said that patience was an innate virtue -- what I was implying that virtue is not true virtue if it is precontrived or forced. Virtue should be spontaneaous and natural, a virtous man will be so without ever thinking about it. It can be learnt but not on an intellectual level and not second hand. It will come from her. There is a greater understanding IMO than that of intellectual understanding -- it is called wisdom through action! Through experience. It will be acted out numerous times before being apprehended as a virtue.

    The extrinsic benefits of restraint vs. genuine patience might turn out to be the same on a micro-scopic level, ie this trade, but the whole notion of restraint suggests discord between the market and the trader, discover what perpetuates the disord and the trader will be in harmony with her. He will no longer have to strain and when we stop struggling ------> WE FLOAT!
    So while this trade may turn out to be "even" monetarily, the one who is in harmony will have the most cheddar in the end.

    PEACE my friend and get ready for your ASS WHOOPIN cause it is coming, can you hear it Danny boy, the winds of change that is? listen closely buddy aahhhhhh, I know you liked that trade huh? you can take Brooks and shove him up your ........
    #17     Oct 16, 2002
  8. Hey Commisso whats all this about having no choice but to act - sure we have no choice but to act because we have a mind and a body. BUT isn't it about how we identify?

    ... we are not the mind or the body, we are consciousness and if we enter the witness state (waking Zazen?) we are albeit temporarily freeing ourself from action. (Kind of like taking the car out of gear - you can rev the engine but it doesn't go anywhere).

    Isn't the whole point of sadhana (whats the zen for spiritual practice?) to become more and more identified with consciousness until ultimately we become free from the bonds of action even while acting in this body??

    While TRUE patience is present in all of us most of us still have to do the work of reaching that space. As usual trading is an awsome workshop for transformation.


    #18     Oct 16, 2002
  9. MarkHyman

    MarkHyman Advanced Futures

    Although the cheetah is the fastest animal in the world and can catch any animal on the plains, it will wait until it is absolutely sure it can catch its prey. It may hide in the bush for a week, waiting for just the right moment. It will wait for a baby antelope, but not just any baby antelope, but preferably one that is also sick or lame. Only then, when there is no chance it can lose its prey, does it attack.
    That is the epitome of professional trading.
    #19     Oct 16, 2002
  10. ElCubano


    maybe if the cheetah didnt wait and just attacked at will he would eat twice as much....:D
    #20     Oct 16, 2002