A little research shows Top Step Trader's John Hoagland's son Edgar Hoagland went to Stanford and then Morgan Stanley, only to be currently working at a "boutique" forex firm. Patak trading also uses this word on their site. I feel for him if he was let go along with many others in 2008/9. I find it strange that mr. Patak's only post on this website was awkward. "Passionate", "boutique", etc I heard a seminar by John Hoagland on Youtube for a moment, he sounds like a nice man. All that talk, and I didn't post what I wanted to say. TST is not very legitimate in my point of view. They come off as fine with their pretty website, but there are numerous fallacies -1. what is the employment contract? Surly you are not sending checks to people. This is important if you are luring poor people living in someone else's home while tinkering with TWS. 2 they are not offering $100k accounts, they are only a few hundred dollars since they do not permit overnight trading on futures. OBVIOUS!!! Does TST think these customers are incompetent? 3. They have a new monthly payment thing. Who is going to pay a 10% deposit on a $7,000 trading account 12 months in a row? Are they dumb? or want mr unemployed to forget he added his brothers credit card. If you are broke and need capital, go to your parents. Not snake oil salesmen. This operation does not really want "passionate" people to succeed. There are prop firms around who do, and they don't screw around with deposits and girley websites -they interview and hire you.
I know two guys there who are backed. They are legit. They get checks every month. But you're right, if you have the resume go to DRW, Infinium or Transmarket Group. Sure DRW only hired 2 guys last spring out of 1000 resumes. But I'm sure your resume is top notch. Give them a call. Chopper is also good. Jump is probably numero uno in Chicago right now. So get busy working on that resume. And better be ready for some serious quant interviews. I hear the one at Jump is a bitch. Four interviews, 2 hours each. But you'll do fine. LOL. Good luck bro!
fwiw my son in fact works at DRW. (you don't know me, do you?) They do not hire in the spring, so that's most likely why they only hired 2. I think around 70% of their serious and capable applications are turned down. But many of them will work elsewhere anyways. If you will be a successful trader and not a dumbie who dinks around with multicharts, they will hire you. Most come from top schools, but you don't even need that at drw (unlike banks). If you can't handle four 2-hr interviews (which I doubt is what Jump does, generally there are 2 or 3 rounds), you deserve to live in your mothers house for a while longer before you start thinking. Do you know what the employment at Patak is like Mav? Just curious. Why isn't this disclosed on their website? Also wondering where you got 1000 drw apps. I'm not trying to be provocative, just wondering. Overall I feel like TST is designed for deposit revenue, NOT as a serious recruitment. Lets face it, even Mr. Hoagland is there to make money from deposits. Look at how many "recruits" there are versus live traders! At least 10 to 1. ps DRW and others are hiring this fall.
I know 3 guys that trade there and if your son works there, I probably know him. I also have a good friend that works with Don Wilson pretty closely. BTW, I wouldn't want to work there. But it's a good firm. Most these firms are technology firms now. A few years back when I flirted with the recruiters in Chicago the first question they asked me was which languages I could program. I told them none and they gave me some pretty good honest advice and I appreciated what they told me. I already knew it, but it was nice to have it confirmed. Not everyone wants to live in Chicago or NY. And if you want to work for these firms and program, because that is what you are going to do, you need to live here. I agree most guys who are "young" like 22 with a solid education probably need to get out here or NY at least to start their careers but I know a lot of guys that want to get out. I've gone over all this stuff before on these forums. I've been in the prop world for over a decade in both NY and Chicago. I know someone at pretty much every prop firm here in Chicago. I know the game. Since I don't feel like rehashing what I said in the past, people need to figure out what they want to do. The business has completely changed. And the entry into the business has completely changed. If any young guy asked me for advice and he was still in school I would tell him to learn to program. He is not going to trade. The only people trading at most of these firms are algos and the partners who have equity in the firm. I get a little annoyed when people throw the word scam around or bucket shops. I worked at one of the most notorious bucket shops in NY that did 5% of the total NYSE volume every day and we produced more millionaire traders then DRW ever has. But that was a different time and a different place. Today it's much harder and the edge is in technology and being able to design and improve that technology. A lot of guys on these forums have no interest in programming or running an algo. They want to trade. Their options unfortunately are very very limited. Borrow money from parents? I would never tell a young guy to do that. Unless you want to get written out of your inheritance. LOL. If you want to have a serious discussion about the prop world, I can do that. I probably know as much as anyone on here second to Bone. But if you are going to run around calling different shops scams or whatever then I rather stay out of it. I only pop on these threads to make sure the reader is getting both sides. If your son works at DRW, what are you doing on these threads? Are you a trader yourself? Are you looking for backing? Are you looking around for your son? I mean what exactly are you trying to sell here?
For new traders, like Mav said, there are few options out there. A lot of the big/real trading firms have ended any kind of training programs and the only way in is with a defined strategy and a track record to back it up. So for new guys it's no good. The other option (which is not as easy either) is to land a job as a trading assistant with a trader at one of these firms. Learn from the trader and hopefully in time get you own book. You will probably have to work long hours, do some menial work, and even not get paid much.....but if it eventually lands you a gig on the trading desk as a trader, is well worth it. As far as Patak. I don't know anyone there and I am not a big fan normally of these type of places. But....they aren't asking for much money up front (probably for some costs) and they spell it out pretty clear what they expect out of guys. The risk limits seem fine to me (they are doing this for the traders own good.....and to avoid backing any cowboys who have no idea how to manage risk), 2000 daily loss on a 10 lot max seems reasonable. And even though you have a 10 lot max, you can still probably trade 5 lots if you want. The only part I did find troubling was: "The equity partner has the right to move the trader back to the Combine at any point if the account balance is below the initial balance" Does this mean if your first few trades are losers they can demote you? If so, that is a bit ridiculous. Overall though, for a new trader, their deal seems like the best out there.
I disagree. I don't understand why people are getting delusional by their numbers. Their largest account has a 15 day trade contract limit. The deposit is $375 for 10 days. 15 ES contracts costs $7500 -that's not far away from $375. Why can't a trader go get a loan from family, friends or on credit? Is this amount really hard to come by for talented traders? More importantly, it's not straight about what a trader has to commit to as far as employment once he has gone through the process. This is an important part that should be known before paying $375 for a free sim account and some guy who's poor son got fired from Morgan Stanley (speculation) to review it. This is a revenue operation, not a serious trader outfit. This doesn't mean they don't have genuine long time traders (I don't know if there are). There are worse offenders out there, but I view it as a waste of time for poor beginners who are better suited focusing on their edge, their normal job and eventually becoming a trader. Mav, I'm just trying to add my $0.02 to newbs who are broke. We were all there once.
OK man, I think you are seeing this all wrong. I know two guys who have gone through the program. Where are you getting this 7500 from? This is the deal. The most expensive combine is the largest account. They give you 150k in margin, that's margin, not capital. That's 1.5 million in notional with a 3k daily risk limit. It cost $350 for the month. If you are profitable by a single dollar, you get that refunded to you. If you are successful, they back you on the exact same terms of the combine. Same risk limits, same everything. So you are spending $350 to potentially get a 1.5 million dollar notional account. That's with a 60/40 split which goes to 80/20 your way after you have made a measly 15k on 1.5 million. Seriously look, I know their contract forward and backward. If you have questions, ask. I think you are reading everything wrong. I honestly don't know where a guy without a top shelf resume is going to get someone to back them with a 7 figure account. If you have a track record...sure. But then if you have a track record, why do you need backing? If you have the degree, go apply at some quant firm. But for the guys who don't fit in those boxes, which lets be honest, is most of the guys on ET, this is "one" alternative. What I absolutely do NOT recommend is borrowing money from friends and family. Please do not do that unless you don't value those friendships. And do NOT trade on a credit card. That is the worst advice. This is a very very tough business. There is no way you can extend your credit deep enough to get profitable and I value family and friends way too much to risk that on a stupid trading account.
their largest account is defined by a 15 contract limit. This is a $7500 account -or slightly more if someone has $1,000 + commodity contracts.
Here is his quote: "Who is going to pay a 10% deposit on a $7,000 trading account 12 months in a row?" I have no idea what 10% of 7,000 is suppose to represent. Nobody is paying 700 a month. The most expensive combine is 150k 10 day combine which gives you 150k in margin and 1.5 million in notional. That cost about 350 or so. I think the cheapest combine is 150 or so for 50k in margin or 500k in notional. And if you are profitable you get that money back. So if you have to keep paying for the combine over and over again, it means you are not making money. And if you are not making money, be glad you didn't fund your own account because I can guarantee you would be down a lot more then 150 or 350 bucks. Especially trading crude oil or gold.