Discussion in 'Financial Futures' started by Michael Patak, Dec 6, 2011.
*** Removed by Baron. See last post in this thread.
Michael.. I don't see you being listed as a sponsor. However, I am very interested to get some clear answers from you. If that is indeed you.. I've been to your site and spoke with your reps before and was not impressed. Everything told me you try to setup a site to generate revenue for you.. with little regard to actually acquiring great talent.
How many traders do you have funded? Can you give an estimate of how much they are funded with or how many contracts you trade per month? What percentage of income does your firm generate from fees, training, etc versus trading income?
How many traders do you have that have traded, acquired from scout, for at least a year?
I don't think you have a good model for finding great traders and I'd be surprise if any of your traders do exceptionally well long term. Your sample period is too short, risk controls too tight, edge too little..
Looks like an interesting firm, albeit quite new, that doesn't require traders to incur a lot of risk. Why are you doing this? Are you able to trade futures profitably?
Roark.. he's doing it to make a ton from the subscriptions. Then with that free money he rolls some traders... really quite simply. The risk controls make it clear that nobody will make any money except Patak.
It is not a bad idea.. I dare say myself. They set a ridiculous bar to get funding because they don't intend to fund anyone. It is all designed to generate revenue from the website. Very obvious...
they say 90% of traders lose. And I'm beginning to beleive them. It took me a while to realize that 90% of traders are actually incredibly gullible.
Actually, their risk is pretty generous. They allow you to lose either $500 or $1000 a day on a 50k account. That is more then enough. The problem is, asking traders to make 12% in a month to pass the combine. That's pretty steep. But the risk limits are not the issue.
Lucias, you should never lose more then 2% a day as a daytrader or you will blow out really fast.
Take a stop loss or have an open drawdown? I could risk up to 3% to 5% on every one of my trades and my probability of blowing out would be minimal. I don't but I could. I would be more profitable if I did. My max DD would probably be about 20%. You have to differentiate between open loss and closed loss and probability of loss.
I've seen a lot of traders come and go at C2. I'm a survivor and have a top rated performance. I haven't seen any survivors that use "tight stops". Most of those vendors that did do that have hid their systems because the actual results after fees/slippage/etc were terrible or they blew out. Anyway.. I trade these markets every day and win.
I agree though the issue is on the performance.. at 1k loss limit, asking for more then $200 per day in profits is unrealistic. a superb trader, working full time, by my standards with a 1k loss limit would be able to do about 3k per month.
Its all probability.. I've never tested a system that did better with a very tight stop. A poignant example is that I run a test that bought the SP on random days. With a 20 point stop, the system lost everything but with a very large stop the system broke even or made a little.
I agree it'd be nice.. but I haven't seen it in practice. I'm watching a system meltdown right now because the vendor is using a 1k stop loss limit and is already down like 6k in a drawdown. I'll risk up to 3% on any day but I usually keep my losses to less then 1/2% of my account.
C2 is garbage. Look, I'm not going to judge you or anyone else's trading. Suffice it to say, you will not get backed by anyone losing 3% to 5% a day. Will NEVER happen. You have my word on that. And my word is as strong as oak.
I already have someone who is trading my system live. My subs have made over $7600 real net profits from my signals over past 30ish days. One of my systems will risk up to 15% on a trade... I have people trading it too. My account balance is over 94k on the other system and I have a sub who is trading it with I estimate around 50k to 90k based on # of contracts I was able to put on overnight.
Look, we both agree that you need to manage risk. I'm always looking to better manage my risk. But I trade to win and based on the evidence. To be 100% clear, I don't like to take big risks. I'd be happy to get my risk down to 2% or less without increasing drawdown or hurting my net profits...
I'm also in talks with a IB and professional CTA and we are talking about going "all in" on one of my systems. Risking an average of 10% per trade and starting with a tiny, tiny account.
Anyway.. c2 isn't garbage. Its one tool to help separate those who talk, talk, talk and don't show anything and myself. Its not perfect. But nothing ever is...
what the hell is 7.6k? Is that supposed to be good? How much did they start with? Some people make 7k a day just being long T Bills.
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