1. I never said that. Just destroying the arguement that my lifestyle is because of illegal immigration in california. I proved that false. 2. Just pointing out your clear hypocrisy 3. No one is taking advantage of shit. Its their choice to be here illegally and the consequences are there's. Ive never hired an illegal for anything. Yep, your hypocrisy and lack of logic is crystal clear.
I just mentioned this in another thread. Google the free rider problem if your not familiar with it. Your lifestyle, as is all of ours in the US and Western Europe, is the result of the exploitation of illegal immigrants, a militaristic control of Middle East oil -- where possible -- and exploitation of foreign labor. Whether or not you feel you do so personally isn't really relevant as you receive the benefits every time you go to a restaurant or stop in an hotel for the night. Anyway, I know we don't see eye to eye and I am willing to leave it at that -- especially since I need to focus on my screens right now. Hope your trading is going well today.
If you hire somebody to work for you and you make a profit in your business you are exploiting their labor by the dictionary definition of exploitation. Are you presenting a twisted way of trying to make us feel guilty about having succesfull businesses? Hysteria and guilt baby, the main tools of a certain political party which of course I won't mention because being negative can get you in rehab nowadays.... no... no... no hard questions or criticism of a certain party in a civilized debate.
Garbage. Dictionary definitions as an attempt to split hairs. If you hire an illegal immigrant -- which is against the law bud -- and you pay them less than the minimum wage then yes you are taking advantage and yes you should feel guilty. Why not hire a US citizen. Oh yeah, that's right I'm a greedy pig who doesn't mind exploiting others. On the other hand, if you hire legally at minimum wage more power to you. I've got no axe to grind. That's the labor market in action. The subtext of this conversation is that the system has been effectively gamed by corporate interests who are busy crying foul when they're ill-gotten perks are merely questioned.
I have a problem with people questioning my morality simply because I live in a country that you think is exploiting the world and thus benefiting my standard of living. Kinda begs the question though, why is it some people here are trying to convince us that the europeans have a higher standard of living then? I guess all this US exploitation either isnt working worth a damn, or all these other countries are doing the very same thing, if not better. Lets just assume that the US govt is in fact exploiting people of the world, does that make me immoral just because I live here, even though I havent exploited anyone? Where germans living in Nazi germany who hid jews in their basement immoral because they lived in germany? Sorry, I havent exploited anyone, and like the founders, believe I should get to keep what I earn, property rights and all. I just smell that typical anti-US at all costs attitude in these threads. I just wonder why people bother to live here if it bothers them so much. You are quite free to leave and denounce your US citizenship. Shop around for another country if you think its so bad here. I just dont buy into all this anti-us rhetoric, and im quite sick of it. People need to look in the mirror. Name some other countries that doesnt protect their own interests. Hypocrisy everywhere. Everyone keeps pointing the finger at the US for being so greedy and evil and they are doing the exact same thing. Or they point to the USA and use some idiotic conspiracy theory to show how evil they are. I guess if you repeat the same garbage enough, people will believe it. Also, the flip side to these poor poor illegal immigrants who we are exploiting is, the US worker put out of a job by artificially low wages driven down by illegals who dont pay any taxes. You keep hearing they take jobs no one wants, but thats a load of horse crap. This market is rigged because of the illegals. No one wants those jobs because the pay is too low directly caused by illegals undercutting them. Let the free market work and those meat factory worker wages would increase until someone hit the bid. That cant happen now because you got illegals under cutting american workers.
Just as a background point, you're chatting with a guy who majored in Philosophy in college -- and then got the MBA. So, I really do understand the perceptions that color both sides of the track. And of course, it's not black or white. Now to your arguments: 1. It's a free country and people question each other's morality all the time. In fact, it's really one of the key debates of our time right now as to what our moral compass is. For example, the Iraq war was sold as "WMD's," "bringing democracy to the middle east", "removing a tyrant from power", etc... And in the event, it turned out that the politicians had cooked the data to engage in a war of choice to benefit their cronies and support a fringe ideology (neoconservatism). It's hard to have much credibility after that fiasco. 2. I didn't participate in the "higher standard of living argument." But I lived in London for a few years back in the early '90s and at that time I would have said definitely not. However, I do think I had better health care in the UK at that time than I did in the US. 3. Unless you are employing illegal immigrants at full wage I don't think your analogy to people hiding Jews in Nazi Germany is correct. 4. With respect to the argument that just living here doesn't create complicity I'd just point out -- using your own type of analogy -- that the Nuremberg trials decided that "I was just following orders" was no defense. Basically, an un/undereducated populace tends not to appreciate the finer points of what their government is doing to keep their refrigerators full and TV's on. If they did, they would vote the crooks out right away, be demonstrating in the streets, etc... If you don't question authority it will take over your life. 5. Much of the anti US rhetoric is deserved since we try to hold other countries to a higher moral standard than we hold ourselves to. The US is a very inconsistent country when it comes to what it espouses vs what it does -- take nuclear weapons policy if you need an example. Now having said that, if you look at the amount of money that gets shoveled out the door for aid we do do a lot of good in the world. So, like I said it's not all black and white. My experience prior to the Bush II administration was that the US and its citizens were considered to be "decent people." It's only since "cowboy diplomacy" came to town that things have gone "really" wrong from a perceptual point of view. 6. The argument that people who don't like the bad things should leave is ridiculous. The object is to improve the way our government and our country operates over and over again and not push the dirt under the rug. Yes, it's a drag to clean house but it really is a much nicer place to live after it's done. 7. You're making my point for me about illegals -- we actually agree on the solution to this one which is a guest worker program that is rigorously monitored. My point in an earlier post is that this will lower the standard of living all around in the US as our labor costs are currently being subsidized by illegal/sweat labor. Not all of the so-called productivity miracle of the last decade is related to technology. Anyway, I've enjoyed the conversations but think I'm going to leave it at that for the day. Enjoy the nice weather and the afternoon. -Sam
3. Unless you are employing illegal immigrants at full wage I don't think your analogy to people hiding Jews in Nazi Germany is correct. That was secondary in my analogy. I was showing that simply living in a country doesnt make you immoral. The germans in the above example didnt have to hide jews to be moral. That was just icing on the cake. The point is, living in nazi germany because you were born there doesnt make you immoral. You could still oppose the govt. actions. 4. With respect to the argument that just living here doesn't create complicity I'd just point out -- using your own type of analogy -- that the Nuremberg trials decided that "I was just following orders" was no defense. If I was ordered to hire an illegal, and did, then this analogy would hold true. Im not doing anything immoral however. 6. The argument that people who don't like the bad things should leave is ridiculous. The object is to improve the way our government and our country operates over and over again and not push the dirt under the rug. Yes, it's a drag to clean house but it really is a much nicer place to live after it's done. Im not arguing that they *should or must* leave, I just dont understand why they wouldnt. Youre not going to change anything in this country in your lifetime, so why not pursue happiness and go somewhere that aligns with your (not necessarily refering to you here) socialist values? Question begging. 7. You're making my point for me about illegals -- we actually agree on the solution to this one which is a guest worker program that is rigorously monitored. My point in an earlier post is that this will lower the standard of living all around in the US as our labor costs are currently being subsidized by illegal/sweat labor. Not all of the so-called productivity miracle of the last decade is related to technology. I havent seen anyone prove that our standard of living would get lowered. We are paying hugely for their medical costs via ER room visits which are 10X higher than regular doc visits because we dont refuse to treat criminal illegals. In at least some states, we pay for their childrens education too (if not most), on tax payer dollar which they dont contribute too. Im not sure what the over all effect would be, but im not convinced either way and havent seen any real good arguments, just the typical rhetoric that were exploiting them (even though they exploit our tax system, healthcare system, school systems, govt infrastructure, not to mention the damage they do with identity theft, etc).
So basically what you are saying you can exploit people only as much as government (law) lets you. You, who accuses others of low morals considers a bureaucratic entity a moral authority? I am sorry but that's disgusting!! Other thing I am not sure you know what you are talking about. Legally mandated minimum wage has nothing to do with "labor market in action". Lastly questioning morality of "profit" is a communist idea. They ran with it until they couldn't. If you want to be consistent in your thinking (you should not have a problem with it, philosophy,MBA etc.) you have to explain to me the difference between moral and immoral profit. I don't think anybody can but will see. So please tell me when the profit becomes immoral?????
Ill answer that last question from my perspective. Answer: When the method of profit violates a citizens rights. One Example: forced slave labor.
I guess what you are saying is we should have a higher minimum wage than we do. I agree. Talk with those who elected the Republicans who blocked the minimum wage increases for the last 10 years or so. It's not the system that's broke. It's the people we elect to "represent us" that are the problem. Immorality starts there and not with those of us who voted to give everyone a chance to earn a minimal living if they went to work. Of course, the minimum wage affects the labor market in action. It sets a floor on the cost of labor. If you know economics you know that certain types of work aren't worth doing below that floor -- people won't do work if they can't meet the basics. So, employers have to raise prices or hire illegal labor that will work for less. Oh gee a "communist" idea. That must be bad. :eek: Surely, you can do better than that rhetorical flourish? Just to nail the underlying point down, I guess the oil companies are good guys for screwing us out the yin yang on gas prices, or Enron was a fine company for screwing Californians out of billions for energy, or WorldCom was a fine bunch of fellows for cooking their books, or New Century financial for not keeping track of their lending standards. Sorry, did I miss the perfection of the capitalist system somewhere?