excellent posts, daniel and madison. re us tacit support or even active policies conducive to, putting it mildly, various groups and nationalities across the globe harboring a certain desire for revenge against the usa: Friendly Dictators Many of the world's most repressive dictators have been friends of America. Tyrants, torturers, killers, and sundry dictators and corrupt puppet-presidents have been aided, supported, and rewarded handsomely for their loyalty to US interests. Traditional dictators seize control through force, while constitutional dictators hold office through voting fraud or severely restricted elections, and are frequently puppets and apologists for the military juntas which control the ballot boxes. In any case, none have been democratically elected by the majority of their people in fair and open elections. They are democratic America's undemocratic allies. They may rise to power through bloody ClA-backed coups and rule by terror and torture. Their troops may receive training or advice from the CIA and other US agencies. US military aid and weapons sales often strengthen their armies and guarantee their hold on power. Unwavering "anti-communism" and a willingness to provide unhampered access for American business interests to exploit their countries' natural resources and cheap labor are the excuses for their repression, and the primary reason the US government supports them. They may be linked internationally to extreme right-wing groups such as the World Anti-Communist League, and some have had strong Nazi affiliations and have offered sanctuary to WWll Nazi war criminals. They usually grow rich, while their countries' economies deteriorate and the majority of their people live in poverty. US tax dollars and US-backed loans have made billionaires of some, while others are international drug dealers who also collect CIA paychecks. Rarely are they called to account for their crimes. And rarely still, is the US government held responsible for supporting and protecting some of the worst human rights violators in the world. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html ============================================== "Why is the USA so frequently the victim of resentment around the world - Why The USA? Introduction This section attempts to answer the question: why is the USA so frequently the victim of resentment around the world? The USA government blames hatred of democracy and envy at the American way of life for this resentment. Many people in the USA and a majority around the world look towards USA foreign policy for the answers. Much of this policy, its history and consequences is under-reported by the American media. Tables and Lists of USA Actions Since 1945 USA Backed Coups http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa01.html USA Invasions, Bombings, Military Aid Political Interventions and Sanctions http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html Use of the Veto on United Nations Resolutions by the USA http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html Involvement of USA Companies http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa04.html USA: Nuclear, Biological and Chemical http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa05.html Civilian Victims of USA Foreign Policy http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html Some of our Korea activities: ...The USA drops 70,000 gallons (265m3) of napalm per day on Korea. This is a substance made from benzene, polystyrene and gasoline that catches fire and sticks to flesh. The victim is either burned to death or suffocated by lack of oxygen... ...During the war in Korea, USA aircraft drop a number of diseased objects (feathers, bacteria, decaying animals, fish parts) in Korea and China. Many people die from plague, anthrax and encephalitis... ...Between 1967 and 1969 the USA sprays Agent Orange over 23,607 acres (95km2) in the border region between North Korea and South Korea. Agent Orange is a defoliant and contains dioxin, a chemical producing cancer and genetic defects in babies.. ============================================== and a conclusion that can only be termed logical and based on good common sense: C.I.A. Warns That a U.S. Attack on Iraq May Ignite Terror http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?U...02/10/09/international/middleeast/09IRAQ.html
If it's so well documented, you should be able to offer a short bibliography off the top of your head. Its true that Osama did not say that if the United States were to accede to Osama's laundry list of demands, that he would then not offer new demands and threats You're right, I have no direct evidence that in such a scenario he would continue act as a murderous terroristic psychopath. Its my personal assessment. Perhaps you think otherwise, that he is a just and trustworthy individual whom we all just misunderstand.
[not trying to speak for daniel_m] osama is an arch-criminal and a cowardly murderer. Killing unsuspecting, innocent civilians, much less women and children, is not justifiable under any circumstances, imo. That said, it seems that he did what he did for some REASONS, however much we may disagree with his methods. There are many (millions?) of people that identify with these reasons, to varying degrees. I fail to see how dismissing them and continuing the policies that underlie those reasons, only with the additional element of killing some of these people, will change that sympathy. The current Bush approach seems analogous to treating a termite infestation with a flyswatter - you can kill some termites, or every one you see, but if you don't treat the source, eventually you run into much worse problems.
The point is the US cannot make foreign policy changes - even if it desired to - under Al- Queda's threats. Blackmailers don't go away. Further, I do not disagree with the US position in the Middle East. Nor do I accept the arguments and descriptions of such policy as the Islamic militants frame and interpret them. What I find irksome are those with a political agenda like daniel and perhaps you (what did you mean when you said "the bastards causing them",in your 1st post?) which includes ritualistic attacks on the government, lays all blame for everything at its doorstep, and in this case plays into the hands of an embittered, determined, and deadly foe.
By "bastard(s)" I was referring to osama and those who support his violence. I don't know whether you intended offense, but in any case I don't have any political agenda -- I am trying to understand this situation, from all sides. I am horrified at the idea of a future of living in fear of fanatics trying to kill me and my family for the actions (or perceived actions) of others. I do not see anything wrong in asking what those actions were, and how we can prevent them from causing another attack, even if the answer might force unpleasant conclusions. On the contrary, I'd say NOT asking would be wrong.
come on dgab, no need to get your panties in a bunch firstly, if you've ever read much of my posts in chit chat you'll know that i'm quite open in my detestation of the entire islamic religion, let alone any terrorism based on it. so i obviously utterly despise osama and his cohorts. secondly, "political agenda"? lol. what the hell does that mean? any political ideas that aren't the same as yours? gimme a break. you might wanna slow down a bit buddy and cease casting your standard fare accusations because i'm certainly not in the habit of "ritualistic attacks on the government" or laying blame for "everything on its doorstep" and i can assure you that i'm certainly not "playing into the hands of an embittered, determined and deadly foe". i really you think you missed the whole point i was trying to make; that americans generally have no clue of what is happenign in the world and stand aghast when something like 9/11 hits and are even then still clueless as to why it could have possibly happened. that's why bullshit excuses are made up like, "oh they are jealous of our democracy; oh, it's all about power", you know the standard bullshit. where's the realisation that, as i've said, the US, like no other country (save perhaps the former USSR) gets involved in the internal affairs of other nations??? that involvement causes resentment. simple as that. as madison said, these people have real reaosons (right or wrong) for hating america. you can't just breezily dismiss it as 'freedom hating' and a 'power thing'. if you swallow all the PR work you'd probably be thinking such interference is justified in every case - which is just plain bullshit. the earth would not stop spinning, business would not dry up, freedom would not be crushed if the US stopped interfering in others' domestic politics - especially to the extant that it does it.
I don't see bin Laden and his militant islamic extremist gang as a response to US foreign policy. Despite their current focus on the US, they seek to establish a global Islamic theocracy, abolish all other religions by forcing the acceptance of Islam, and to exterminate all Jews. Are you so ^%$#@^ stupid as to think that our meddling in other countries has produced this insanity? So the Americans who were "aghast" at 9/11 were just dumb shits, but not you Daniel M! You knew better!
I don't see bin Laden and his militant islamic extremist gang as a response to US foreign policy. you don't huh? i never said it was the whole reason and if left alone they would just stop; i'm actually very well aware of the fundamental aims of islam. but how can you possibly think that america hasn't made herself a focus of their attention by her activity in the region? you aren't blind are you? Are you so ^%$#@^ stupid as to think that our meddling in other countries has produced this insanity? no, i'm not that !@$@$ stupid. are you so !@$#@!$ stupid that you don't think it has made an impact? So the Americans who were "aghast" at 9/11 were just dumb shits, but not you Daniel M! You knew better! that's a pretty accurate summary. the other half of that point was that 9.11 was made to appear to have been the mother of all atrocities. which is just plain bullshit. as i said, american meddling has cost far more lives than 9.11 - that is the part that americans (like you, it seems) are extremely ignorant or in denial of. i'm gonna have go and dig up some references for you now gabby. remember, i'm not in any way condoning 9.11 - as i've said, i completely and utterly detest the entire islamic world, let alone terrorism based on it (are u doubting this??) - i'm saying that it had its reasons.
...I never thought Id see the day, but as I read all these responses form various posters on this thread and others, it is clear many have been psychologically scarred from the terrorist acts we were inflicted with. Im not saying it's not natural, but the way it has suddenly turned around and to hear this many supposed americans now trying to blame themselves is stunning. I don't blame alot of you for wanting to stick our head in the sand to appease some terror freaks, but if you really and truly believe that that will end these attacks, i have an Oil tanker in the mediterranean you may want to purchase....It's actually a damaged FRENCH TANKER that was bombed by Al Queda last month...You see how they won't attack countries who don't meddle.???..like those cowardly french who were against any and all action in Iraq and who refused to let their airspace be used in previous attacks? The French actually were their biggest ally in the UN...yet their ship was attacked...Hmmm...i guess the passive role may not work afterall?