On Music and Trading and Art.

Discussion in 'Trading' started by Mr. DNA, Aug 31, 2002.

  1. Gordon, you are my favorite lizard, and I think you know that. BUT, some noise that is passed off as music is simply sonic chaos.

    When man brings order out of chaos, he is <i>con</i>structing something. When he is propogating chaos, he is simply perpetuating its destructive nature.

    The nature of the scales, rhythms, and constructs thereof is to bring order to sound. To use the ordered tools of music to promote chaos is, if you think about, contradictory.

    That doesn't mean that everyone likes the same style of music. In fact, style isn't the issue. The issue is the nature of the heart that produces the music.

    to wit:http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/sounds/garap.wav
     
    #11     Aug 31, 2002
  2. <font size =1> --- Jeffery K. Salkin, <i>Being God's Partner</i>.</font>


    Traders, to the extent that their activities bring about the efficient allocation of goods and services, provide depth and liquidity to free markets, bringing order to the chaos of numbers which facilitate the economies that feed, cloth, house, and occupy civilization. In other words, imitate The Invisible Hand.


    What an awesome privilege.
     
    #12     Aug 31, 2002
  3. i had to laugh when i listened to that wav file. it's hard for me to really respond to what you wrote. i understand what you're saying, but i still have to say that it always comes down to the eye of the beholder. i didn't like that wav file either, but that doesn't mean the person who created it didn't...or someone else won't.

    i bet i could play some parts of songs for you that you might consider chaos, but i might really love them. some parts of korn songs would be good examples. actually, i will give an exact example for anyone who's interested.

    band, nine inch nails
    album, the downward spiral
    song, ruiner (track 6)
    point of song, 0:33 to 0:49

    i'm sure if played that part for my father, he would hate it. but i can appreciate it for what it is.

    p.s. i like many other kinds of music, not just this type.
     
    #13     Aug 31, 2002
  4. actually, I <i>loved</i> that wav file!:p Proves your point I suppose.

    I used to do an accoustic version of the original. Incidentally, it is common knowledge among afficionadoes that Jimi Hendrix's original lyrics were, 'Jesus Saves.' I've seen a photo the page which contained his lyrics and 'score.'

    Some other 'interpretations.'

    http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/sounds/purplehaze.mp3

    http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/sounds/punkgreenacres.mp3

    http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/sounds/punkgreenacres2.mp3

    http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/sounds/firedept.ra

    Here's an example of destructive versus constructive. Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. (I've been known to sing this one to Miss Market.)

    Music: http://www.emf-theband.com/audio/unbelievable01.ram

    Noise:http://www.emf-theband.com/audio/unbelievable04.ram <font size=1> I am sorry, but this is the voice of the Devil, here.</font>


    All human endeavor communicates either goodness or evil.
     
    #14     Aug 31, 2002
  5. hehe, that's a bit of a stretch. i don't like that type of vocals either, but that's not to say it isn't anyone else's cup of tea. if you took that down a few notches, it might sound similar to some deftones ("headup")/staind ("spleen") type vocals which i find great.
     
    #15     Aug 31, 2002
  6. but that's the point. somewhere in life, you begin to draw lines. the wiser you get, the more fairly and truthfully they are drawn. No matter what, though, someone is always left on the other side of the line. Making sound judgments (no pun intended) is always going to offend someone. It's one of the burdens of life.

    Incidentally, the "Music" version is actually Tom Jones! Got to respect him.
     
    #16     Aug 31, 2002
  7. I, too, am a musician. I play piano and keyboards, plus I compose and arrange. I've been playing music since I was 3, and I've played professionally since I was 14. Attended a conservatory after high school as a Piano Major, with studies in both Classical and Jazz forms. Had my own music production company for 5 years, but decided to separate making music and making money a number of years ago. I still pursue music, but as art now, instead of commerce. I made a decent living with music, but I would never get to do the music that I really wanted to do, because there was always some "customer" to please. Back in the days of Bach, there were patrons of the arts. Now, if you want to have freedom of expression, you need to be "self-patronizing". J

    My commerce pursuits took me from sales (good way to make real money if all you have is a music degree!), to computer programming (almost as fun as composing!), to my current situation, which is trading professionally with a prop firm. Trading is the best.

    Here are the parallels between trading and music, as I see them…

    Whether people are aware of it or not, or want to believe it or not, both trading and music are driven by underlying rules. Even when someone says…"hey man, this new music breaks all the rules!", they are still following some new set of rules. Otherwise, it would unrecognizable as music. Same with trading. Even those who seemingly effortlessly trade in and out of a stock all day long, are still following rules. What they've achieved, though, is the same virtuosity as a great musician. They've internalized the rules so well that they're not "thinking" about what they're doing, they just acting. It's this confidence and swift, sure action that makes all the difference. An experienced musician can listen to a piece of music, and fairly well guess where it probably going to go next. An experienced trader can look at a stock chart and have a good idea where it's probably going to go next. This is because both music and the market work according to underlying principles.

    Musicians have charts, so do traders. In music, an increase in volume signifies an increase in emotional intensity. Same with trading. Music charts can have multiple parts or lines all on one chart. Traders can have multiple indicators. As a pianist, I can look at a music chart with 10 or more data items per beat, but I don't see them individually. The information gets "chunked up" to higher levels of abstraction, so I see scale fragments, chord formations, and so forth. A good trader can look at a chart and do the same thing. The brain gets "programmed" to recognize and process the chart information as larger patterns, which become immediately recognizable.

    In music, a crescendo doesn't last forever, it typically peaks, then is followed by a decrescendo and a resolution. Same with trading. Music can have a rapid tempo, or a slow tempo. Same with trading. A certain composer's music has a recognizable personality, even though each piece is different. A given stock will trade with a recognizable personality, even though each day is different.

    Before you can even start to approach being a great artist or trader, you have know the fundamentals of your craft. You would be amazed at the level of musical technical information that professional jazz musicians draw upon when they're "freely improvising"! Whether it's scales, chords, and melody, or it's support, resistance, and volume, this provides a basis, as well as the vocabulary you will need to effectively learn from masters of your craft.

    You can read books on both music and trading, but to be great you need a teacher, coach, or a mentor. In some ways, the EliteTrader board provides this to some extent for people who don't have access to a trading room. Both music and trading require something that is not easily expressed in books. Call it a feel, a sense, or an instinct. This process can be accelerated by observing great musicians or traders plying their craft in real time as it's happening. After watching (or listening) enough, eventually it all starts to come together in your own brain.

    If you haven't already, I highly recommend reading <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735201447/mhw-20">Trading in the Zone</A>. This book will help get you started in the right direction.

    I hope I haven't given you a "long-distance runaround", but it sounds like you are "close to the edge" of this thing. Yes?
     
    #17     Aug 31, 2002
  8. MartinWeinberg,

    as someone who has played guitar, bass, and drums for years -- and also trades, i can say i liked that post a lot!
     
    #18     Aug 31, 2002
  9. nitro

    nitro

    Hmmm,

    Is there a "thread polution" law ? That would ROCK!

    nitro
     
    #19     Aug 31, 2002
  10. very interesting points.

    as far as chaos goes, i think there is something more to it than simply "badness and destruction":(

    controlled dissonance and chaos is what makes music interesting. without dissonance you would be left with nothing but elevator music. the thing that i like most about Bach is the perfect balance between dissonance and resolution. and the pathways he takes from dissonance to resolution. like looking at a fractal, the beauty of the clash and continuous tension between order and chaos. the cycle of dissonance to resolution and back, like the cycle of night/day rain/dry cold/warm, is stimulating. it is probably what makes the Bach listening plants grow faster.

    and look at Igor Stravinsky's rite of spring..
    not only harmonic dissonance, but rhythmic dissonance as well.
    It caused a riot in Paris when it was premiered (lol)
    but it is truly a masterpeice. we as the audience just had to "grow into it"

    also chaos has RAW ENERGY, which can be stimulating in and of itself.

    I have had trancendental listening experiences from music that would literally make my Grandmother pull her hair out of her head..:D

    I think that the intentions of the performer/composer is the important part. Too much dissonance and you lose resonance (and communication) with the audience. Not enough and you have elevator music...
     
    #20     Aug 31, 2002