Knight - still looking for a firm to trade with? My buddy just hired an Amex specialist on his team and he seems like he has what it takes. I would like to add someone of this calibur to my team. If interested send me a mail to bigbear1130@yahoo.com. Thanks.
Timber (Def), You and I both know that your employees are the least knowledgable trading group there is. The success of your firm is directly correlated to your programers who developed a system that shows the firms macro risk profile and adjusts bids and offers to limit that risk. i.e. If long a lot of MSFT, will lower market on other products until the risk is paired off. Your programmers are to be commended for their efforts, Timber's success is their doing, not the traders - they simply stand in the pit and do what the computer tells them - which frequently has them doing stupid trades. In other firms, traders use their skill and judgement combined with the resources of a computer to make markets. For their work they are paid a salary and a portion of the profits. I could teach and compensate Timber traders with bananas to do what you guys do (they may be hairy and have long limbs) but I wouldn't have to pay them high salaries or bonuses because they would accept that their success was due to the system. As for knowing about backspreads, jelly rolls, etc. these are option positions that provide the basis for option trading. They are not just "lingo" but rather are option positions that have risks and rewards that I MUST BE AWARE OF prior to entering a trade. The fact the you would make such a stupid statement, tells me that you really don't know what you are talking about. You further qualify my belief when you assert that being thrown into a pit environment with limited knowledge is the best way to learn. There is no worse feeling than not knowing what you are doing and being belittled, berated, picked off and laughed at. Nobody should be placed in that environment without preparation, even if they possess a simpleton's computer trading system. The married put question came from one of your senior guys and I laughed at first because I thought he was kidding... Regarding my "bigheadedness" never have I asserted that the exchange is (or should be) the only trading forum. Indeed I have repeatedly said that I like the concept of electronic trading and welcome more advances. Bottom line, this is a trading (not systems software) forum where trading information is exchanged and views are discussed. I stand by all of my comments and believe them to be true. You have contested my views and I assert that you do not know what you are talking about. You may have a fancy degree - and good for you - but I do not believe that you are an knowledgable option trader, therefore your knowledge on this subject is limited and should be considered accordingly. Tony - Very funny, really... Big Bear - I'll consider any reasonable offer. Take care all. The Knight
knight, ignorance is bliss. your assumptions about my background and knowledge are purely laughable, ditto for your comments on timber trading. thanks for making my day. your comments only serve to inflate your already swollen ego and sense of self worth. oh well, our lack of options knowledge will still replace the trading floors.
Def, It's like I told you in a previous post - what do I know... I only do this day in and day out, am familiar with almost all of the groups on the floor and actively trade for a living. You write posts on the board, but by your own admission don't trade for a living or even live in the US. Oh, but you do "talk with several people" about liquidity and the trading environment and can dig up statistics, oh, and you assert that you "probably know more about the math behind option pricing models...", blah, blah, blah.. And you think I have an inflated ego? Get real guy. Wake up and smell what your shoveling. You and I both know what your firm is all about, nothing I have said here is untrue (I may be off on the specifics of your computer hedging formula but I believe my conception of it is accurate). Your assertion that your firm will repalce the trading floor is stupid and illustrates how out of touch you are with reality. The "floor" is merely a venue for trading. It is not the building that makes the place operate, but rather the people inside of it. They will adapt and continue making markets in whatever the new medium evolves into, be it electronic or otherwise. In fact most of the big groups have already started centralizing their operations upstairs and in a few years possibly won't even use the floor. Currently everyone affiliated with the financial industry is hurting and looking for ways to cut costs. January which typically is the best month has not been good and there is a lot of pain. Seat leases on the AMEX are less than half what they were a year ago and if things don't pick up there will be more job cuts. Your firm is not unaffected - you fired several traders two weeks ago and from what I understand are looking to purge more. The reason I take the time to respond to your posts are due to the audience reading them. It would be much simpler to say "whatever" and go on about my business - trading. The fact is, you are painting an inaccurate perspective of the trading environment and floor traders and I am calling you out on it, because I don't want the people reading this post to be deceived by you. Most traders on the floor are not in the business of screwing the customer. The exchanges have hammered home the point that order flow is the lifeblood of an exchange and if you want the customer to return, ensure that they are satisfied. The stereotypical floor trader makes millions of dollars a year and drives a six figure car. Like any other business there are stars and there are guys who don't make it (the average career lifespan for an option trader is six months). Go and look in the parking lots around the exchanges, see for yourself. This is a hard business and it doesn't suffer fools - especially in this market where spreads are tight and good trades are rare. The days of cherry picking and standing at the back of the pit hedging the auto-ex trades are over. Most traders make a deceint living in good times - as much as good doctors and lawyers - but suffer in times like these (high fixed exchange costs). The days of single listing and wide spreads are over - competition has forced improvements for the customer and it is a good thing. Is the system perfect, NO. I never declared it was. On the floor however, there exists a symbiotic relationship between broker and trader that ensures the trade will be executed at a fair price - The traders fill the broker because they want to get in on order flow. The broker remembers the traders who filled a bad trade when the good ones come around. If the customer doesn't like the fill he will take the business elsewhere. It is this relationship that fills orders when perhaps I don't want to - particularily when the market is volatile and I stand to lose money when making the trade. In times of a crash, seasoned traders will remain in the pit (newbees and guys on boxes will leave) because they truely believe that there are times when you have to give back to the market - to help it out, so to speak. I do not believe that a faceless, electronic screen market will ever have this type of relationship. I also voice valid concerns regarding liquidity, depth and continuity. That said, the market is a living entity, bigger than any one person or company. For you to assert that you will replace the floor is foley and illustrates your ignorance regarding the trading markets. The Knight
Its tough to read ... I truly wish you good luck finding something off-floor. The world has changed since option exchange floors came into being. The physical floors can no longer be justified. Customers and the firms representing them are growing tired of paying for them. In the years since I sold my last Amex seat, I have watched the trading option markets die, and market themselves into what they are today. Seats markets and lease markets, as you know, are manipulated by the various clearing firms. However in theory, falling seat prices (lease rates) combined with increasing volumes would signal less perceived advantage to being on floor. We need to level the playing field. Customers do not want to have options dealt to them. They want to trade with each other so they have a real chance of coming away from a trade with the long end of the stick. Options could be reborn if they went all electronic. We need Island for options and option spreads! Now! In response to your criticism of my previous post, I would refer you to letters written to the SEC by IB's general counsel on the subject of non-competitive rule changes which permit various option floors to break trades if customers enter orders too rapidly, enter too many orders, enter orders on both sides of markets, etc. They are posted on IB's website. Again, best of luck finding that new job.
Hello Sail, Thanks for your input and encouragement. As you know seat prices have really declined over the past year. An AMEX seat last year was about $16K/mo. now it can be had for $5K. On the P-Coast the exchange has lost half it's traders and staff because the money isn't there anymore. Positive news is hard to come by these days and if things don't improve in the next few months there will be a lot of traders going under. We've discussed the future of the floors before and I've disagreed with your view that the exchage can no longer be justified and exists to gouge the customer. I see customer limit orders trade on the bid and offer in front of me every day and I occassionally trade with them - I've done thousands of these trades and have never broken them. The specialist has a fiduciary duty to protect the order and can even have the trade broken by the customer (within a reasonably short period of time) if they don't like the fill - not many people know that but it's true- so there are customer failsafes. If the trading public could see for themselves the amount of money that is earned by the traders and the specialist I think they would be surprised. Nobody is earning six figures a day - those days happen rarely- five figures is a good day, really. Then you come in the next day and discover an outtrade that costs you a weeks work. Yes you say take it to arbitration - well that takes three weeks to get a decision and you are unhedged the whole time. Would you want to be out 50,000 deltas for three weeks in this, or any, market? Hell no, right. So you split the error with the conta and move on. There are all sort of things that can bite you - system problesm, clerking error, etc. Bottom line, it's damn tough and the edge hardly compensates as is. Eventually everyone will question why bother? Why provide these markets? Why be constrained with spread limits and continuity rules? WHy not simply sit off floor and trade. Yes I'll give up some edge but I'll save exchange fees, phone charges, hard line fees, etc. and I'll trade when I want and not have surveivance reviewing my work. I haven't read the IB article and I'll try to get around to it (only have so much time - you know how it is). Regarding your third paragraph comment, I think you crossed yourself up - low seat lease and increasing vloume are when you want to be on the floor, to garner that edge. Regarding someone comign away with the "long end of the stick", options are a zero sum game. If someone gets the long end, someone gets the short end. It is possible to get both partiies the long end but that requires legging into the underlying and now we're really just trading the underlying aren't we. As for leveling the market - how much flatter can it get? Spreads are competitive between five option exchanges and it's getting to the point where the small amount of edge obtainable in the option market is not worth the trade. As a trader I am constrained by rules and have to pay high fixed costs (just because seats are $5K now doesn't mean that's what I am contracted to). I am seriously questioning why bother? - hence my original posting. The public concensus is that they are being ripped off when the price changes. It doesn't occur to them that options are securities deriving value from a continuously changing underlying that I have to hedge with - and when the price of the underlying changes the options therefore change accordingly. The reason for the recent decline in derivatives is due to inactivity in the underlying. If paper isn't going to trade the underlying they aren't coming into the option market. I don't think ISLD starting an option exchange will change that. Do you think starting an option trading ecn to facilitate day trading options is a good idea for the general public. Used incorrectly, these securities could bankrupt a lot of people. You know how the public is - they are sheep. When I worked retail I would get all sorts of calls to open option trading accounts following the latest Wade Cook seminar. Half the people calling really didn't know what they were doing. Do you really think (and I'm being sincere here, not arguementative) that enabling a public trader the rapid, unconfirmed ability to sell naked 1000 10 delta calls in the current market is a good idea? How does island assign them - do they merely leave a message on their answering machine. The public sometimes needs protection from itself... Do we need to improve our financial system - YES. Is competition good - YES. - However, if spreads are tightened up to the point where market makers cannot make money (not excessive spreads) and consequently leave, this will lead to illiquidity that will cause choppy markets and lead to frequent liquidity holes in the marketplace - not good. Hopefully a reliable, fast, inexpensive, liquid and fair system will be developed that can work for everyone. Thanks for the encouragement and have a good weekend. The Knight
Quote: As for you Stock (village idiot), If you're referring to our previous conversation regarding option exercise - It's not possible to scalp an EXPIRED anything. If the options went out unassigned that's it, period. The only thing that I would be waiting a long time for, is an intelligent comment from you. The Knight Awww, c'mon now Knightski, you know what I meant. I take your avoidance of the fact that you're getting to unload your hedge at an extra profit , due to the archaic rules that penalize retail traders as proof of my original point. As for your whining about all the terrible 'edgeless' trading on the floor, who say's the retail public owes you an easy living? I know you guys think the seat is a license to steal, and maybe it used to be, but time are a changing. Your quote "If the trading public could see for themselves the amount of money that is earned by the traders and the specialist I think they would be surprised. Nobody is earning six figures a day - those days happen rarely- five figures is a good day, really. " Gee, I thought all you pros made 100k + a day, net, week in week out. If you can't book half a million a week, why even get out of bed? Now I know why you're so cranky.
"Knight, are you trading or waiting around to scalp those unassigned ITM options on Monday morning?" - Stock 777, (page 13). I don't believe there is any ambiguity in your comment, did you mean something else? Your comment seemed pretty clear to me. You know, I'll bet when trading you do something that you "were under the wrong impression (page 7)" about, or "oversleep and forget (page 6)", or whatever and when your own action bites you, you cry - I didn't mean to do that, or I'm losing money because of the rules, or "they've got me", etc... I have spent pages 6-8 discussing the automatic exercise limits with you - if you still don't understand it well, you probably aren't going to. Whining is complaining with typically no logic, the poor me syndrome. I'm not here to whine, my intent is to show the other side of the coin, from a floor trader's perspective. When I traded electronically I too used to think that I was being ripped off; That the specialist and market makers had a license to print money and were making out like bandits. That is not the case. My reference to the amount of edge is in response to assertions of wide spreads and the belief that the market is rigged. I have said repeatedly that there is no free lunch and have given rational for all of my views. Nobody gives away anything in this business and if they do it's probably bad. What I tried to impress in my comments is that there are a lot of good people on the floors who really care about the markets and have a sense of honor. In fact the whole floor trading environment is predicated on your word and the relationships that are fostered with the various members on the exchange - these relationships (customer-broker, customer-specialist/dpm, and broker-market maker/specialist) are interrelated and work to enhance the customer's experience on the exchange. We are all in the business for the long term and recognize that an unhappy customer will take their business elsewhere. You whine about the rules and how you are losing money because of them - these are disclosed rules that everyone abide by! Your comment is analogous to saying the government cost you money because you received a speeding ticket. As I told you in a previous post, take responsibility for your own trade. Effectively OWN your trade and KNOW what you are doing. Nobody is going to give you anything in this business - money is made by taking it away from people who have no intention of giving it to you. I accept that the buck stops with me. If I lose money I work to discern the reason, learn from it and try to ensure that it doesn't happen again. I don't blame the rules because it is my responsibility to know what they are prior to entering the field. Maybe you are in the wrong business... The Knight
You're probably right Knight, in the wrong business. First thing Tuesday morning I'm calling Timber Hill and ask them to lease me one of those boxes with the RED and GREEN lights on it. Why fight it.
knight, i don't have time to read all your posts in depth this morning but i would like to correct a few of your statements. 1. you say i don't trade - wrong: I just don't trade in the states. I am responsible for the asian trading for timberhill. i used to trade in the US from upstairs and traded on the floor in HK. i've overseen millions of trades - if you like to think i/we know nothing about options trading, so be it. 2. volumes on the amex are sliding, they are rising on the ISE and most other electronic venues around the world. there is a reason for this - price/time priority and a level playing field. 3. your assumptions regarding how timber trades and why there were layoffs are completely off base. w/o fully knowing the ins and outs of US policy I suspect that the move on the AMEX is reflective of allocating resources to where things are trading. this was a nice discussion until you started talking about things you are clueless about. how about trying to get it back on track.