I am looking for a proprietary trading position. If anyone out there works at a firm that trains new traders, sponsors them for licensing exams, and is currently hiring, I would love to know about them. I have about 3 years of experience trading my own account and I want to turn pro. I just graduated from Penn State with a Finance degree. I would very much appreciate ANY job leads at all! Please email me at mwz9@hotmail.com. Thanks! Michael Zweighaft
knight, i've taken time to read the rest of your comments now. I actually agree with some of your comments on what needs to be improved in option land. However.... To clarify , I never meant to imply that Timber would replace the Amex. I do mean to state that I am confident that electronic trading venues will. These venues will be supported by many firms - perhaps even yours. Experience from overseas markets (mainly Europe) has shown that when given a choice between a liquid electronic market or open outcry, the electronic market will eventually dominate. You stress that the floor traders deeply care about flow and keeping customer business. This may now be the case. However, this attitude is a reflection of the competition that has hit the business due to multiple listings. Turning around now and saying all of you care deeply for the customer is kind of hard to swallow. Maybe its true but many traders have long memories and this new improved attitude could prove to be a case of too little too late.
Def, Since you have never traded on a US exchange let me enlighten you - Anyone that has, knows what your firm is all about - throw guys into a pit and have them do what the computer tells them. You may have convinced this day trading audience that you are an authority on trading options, but any floor trader knows differently. I will go a step further and say that I think a head clerk from any of the larger trading companies (Susquahenna, Wolverine, Knight, Hull, etc) has a better understanding of trading derivatives than any of your traders. The logic of my questioning your comprehension of derivatives trading is in my posts - read them. Volumes are sliding everywhere, including equity markets, and it's due to a RECESSION - all you have to do is read a newspaper to know that. I'm sure that a US newspaper is available to you in Hong Kong. Your firm (and many other firms, including mine) have laid off people and plan more layoffs if the current market conditions prevail. You did not reallocate your traders, you let them go and the individuals that I know on the AMEX are concerned that they will be next. I don't know why I'm even bothering to continue this discussion with you. You are incapable of adknowledging truths that any floor trading personnel will verify. Even your own post is gibberish - How can you know that I am off base if you don't know the ins and outs of US policy? My advise to you is: Start telling the truth. Update yourself on the current US economy and market conditions. Subscribe to a daily US financial publication. Limit your dialogue to subjects that you are familiar with. Maybe then we can have an honest, constructive, mutually educational and "nice" discussion. The Knight
Def, Of course attitudes have changed since multiple listing. The various option exchanges had a monopoly on their respective issues and essentially could do whatever they wanted to the customer. That said, I don't blame the exchanges for that. The securities regulators and the government failed in their duty to protect the public by eliminating this monopoly. If ANY business has a monopoly they will seek to take advantage of the market. I got ripped off on a kids toy last month - 50% mark up - I knew I was being gouged but I had nowhere else to go. A similar situation existed with brokerage houses in the seventies, until discount houses emerged which ultimately led to ecn's and have thankfully opened up the markets for everyone. I could go on - MSFT, deregulation of airlines/ phone companies/ utilities...etc. Even the electronic trading arena isn't innocent - the largest NASD fine ever (just under $1,000,000,000) was levelled on several brokerage houses for trading around the electronic market place. The fact is, in any business (especially in the trading environment) the participants with the upper hand will seek to exploit their advantage to the maximum. It is only through active competition that customer service, price and product are improved. Thankfully for the customer, times have changed, spreads have narrowed and commissions have declined. There is no doubt that electronic trading is the future, I just don't believe that it is ready to fully replace the trading floors. That said, the floor will evolve in one form or other - most likely with the representive firms moving their operations upstairs and making markets electronically. Hopefully the financial market will benefit. The Knight
knight, just because i traded upstairs in the US and not in a pit doesn't mean I am ignorant of how options trade. i've been posting here quite a long time and if i have ever stated something wrong when it comes to options others would certainly have put me in my place (not everyone on this board is as brainless as you think). a track record is built up over a period of time. i'll stand by mine. its humorous how you say timber as a firm knows nothing about options. it must have been a typo that timber made the forbes 500 cause i thougt our guys on the floor where giving away money. the funny thing is that you belittle our traders and their little black boxes - but somehow the system is doing far better than you. you imply layoffs mean a firm is having a tough time - not necessarily true. i would think of it in these terms. if you have an inefficient plant you mothball or streamline it once a more cost effective and efficient plant is on line. you say volumes are down - are they down for all traders/exchanges? somehow the ISE is growing, somehow island is growing, somehow A/C/E is growing, somehow eurex continues to achieve new record volumes in these difficult times. somehow i'm able to read magazines, newspapers and periodicals on a global basis while you're probably sticking to the sports section of the NY post. (things do exsist outside outside of NY and the US). if you are going to attempt to state facts, get them right. oops, got to run, the HK markets are open and i've got to press some buttons
Def, Just like I told your trader in the pit the other day - "You talk a lot for someone who reads a box!" Facts: You have never traded on a floor exchange. You currently do not live in the US. You do not trade in the US. In fact, you currently are not even a trader. You work for a company that buys on green and sells on red. Your audience are predominantly non-exchange, non-institutional electronic traders. All financial firms (in fact all firms) are having a tough time in this market environment - if you were in the US you would know that. Money is tight and all trading groups in all exchanges are cutting back, and not just in trading positions; Clerks, secretaries and various support staff have been and are being laid off. I know this because my firm is represented on all floor exchanges and I, unlike you, do not need a secondary source to keep aprised of industry trends - get your own facts straight. Regarding your statement that "(your) system is doing far better than (me)" - how can you justify your hubris? You know nothing about me, the products I trade, my company or my p&l. (Incidentally I laugh at your assertion). My impression regarding your lack of trading understanding is based on our conversations, particilarily your twaddle on page 14. Let me quote you to illustrate my point: "...even if you know more about married puts, jelly rolls, back spreads, and other floor lingo - so what. I probably know more about the math behind option pricing models, hedging across a portfolio, and ofcourse electronic trading. My head just isn't swollen enough like yours to realize that the way I do things is the only way. As for our traders, yes our firm give an opportunity for inexperienced traders to get into the pits quickly. What better learning experience... you probably wouldn't be using your computer on the floor if it wasn't for the likes of Timber Hill lobbying to allow them on the trading floors. Second: tool vs crutch - whatever you like to think. If ours is a crutch - fine with me as long as it keeps producing solid returns..." And that folks says it all... Def, keep reading periodicals and color coded screens. I'll cut off my limbs, poke out one of my eyes, cancel my subscriptions to the Jounal and the FT, read nothing but the NY Sporting Times and arrive to work impared - maybe then I'll be able to match your option trading acumen. The Knight
knight - obviously you can't read and can't get any facts straight: Your incorrect assertions which you call Facts: You have never traded on a floor exchange Wrong, I have traded index options on the floor of the HKFE You currently do not live in the US. So what - the world is smaller than you can comprehend You do not trade in the US. So what - i am pretty well clued in - see above In fact, you currently are not even a trader. Wrong, I run the Asian trading for Timber Hill. You work for a company that buys on green and sells on red Those were the old days. Now we simply turn on a button and send our orders to the exchange. However, someone or something has to set the parameters. It is not black magic. I'm wasting my time with you but for what its worth, i've been a speaker at a number of FOW conferences, been invited to participate on a number of panels regarding the direction of the business/industry, and am in regular contact with the heads of a number of the Asian Exchanges - I'm sorry that they are not the heads of the almighty US exchanges but via my position I happen to be in contact with a number of well clued in people in the US options industry. Re: P&L - forgive me for assuming but while you're crying about how difficult times are and how you are looking for an opportunity to leave the floor, I just took a leap of faith that things aren't going so well. As for Timber, the read the S&P rating report on IBG's web site. Past returns are spelled out in black and white. If you matched those returns, my hat is off to you and i'll eat humble pie. Tweak, misinterpret my words all you want. I've rec'd nothing but respect from regulators, exchange officials and fellow traders in the markets I have participated in. I have no problem looking in the mirror. How about trying to redirect the conversation towards electronic vs. floor trading
Def, There is nothing incorrect about my assertions and there is no misinterpreting or twisting your direct quote. Our converstion is centered around US option markets - NOT Chinese markets. The problem I have with you is that you do not know what you are talking about - you are not a US derivatives exchange market maker and you have absolutely no experience trading on an American floor exchange. Based on our conversation I do not think that you are "clued in". Your arrogance is simply astounding. It is analagous to me asserting that I am completely knowledgeable on the financial and business environment of the Chinese markets, because I occassionally speak with various market participants in said markets. I openly admit that I am not familiar with the workings of the HK exchange. Even if I were in daily contact with their personnel, I would not presume that I knew more about what was occuring in their market than them. This conversation is not a waste of your time - it is a waste of mine. It's just dawned on my that if an individual has the bloated ego to believe that they are an authority on what occurs on the other side of the world, in an environment that they have never been in and admitingly lack the trading knowledge of the people in that environment - ("...even if you know more about married puts, jelly rolls, back spreads, and other floor lingo - so what. I probably know more about the math behind option pricing models..."), they will not listen to anyone but themselves. You are suffering from hubris and I'm finished trying to steer you back to reality. With regards to your firms's success - your programmers are to be commended, they have developed a system that even your traders can follow. The Knight