Your supposition is that religious thinkers were the first philosophers. I doubt this to be true. Branches of Vedic thought is actually atheistic in nature, (similarly seen in Buddhists atheistic beliefs) suggesting that God has nothing to do with human behaviors right or wrong, but rather the condition of life speaks of cause and effect, the Eternal Law of Karma. Karma states what you do to others will come back upon you in time, either this lifetime for future lifetimes. That really is the essence of the Golden Rule, that as you do unto others, so will the same be done unto you, so as people naturally don't want bad things done to them, it is wrong to do them to others. This theory is not morally derived necessarily the way most people think, coming from some Higher Power demanding certain behaviors, but right is determined as much as it serves the individual self interest maximally in terms for future pain. Morality can have nothing at all to do with God, as my argument shows. It has simply to do with what mankind thinks is right for himself...to be subjected to pain as a a result of his actions...not by God or because God said so, but by the nature of the Universal Law of cause and effect. Right then become selfish from the point of view of doing what is right for the individual and their actions, and the benefit socially as it produces actions that are not harmful to others. This ideas predates any religion you are probably thinking of, and is hard wired into our human experience and common sense and logic does the rest. That these ideas derived from atheistic thought, coincide with a Christian Golden Rule is not by coincidence in practice, nor also that they dovetail with Kant's moral imperative derived from pure reason, as all are grounded in the universal human experience of logic, reason, and common sense. Human mind predates religion, unless of course you are suggesting religion did not actually come from God, but from man's imagination...but even that situation requires the mind to come before the imagination. I still contend that thoughts by humans of what is right predates formalized religion, and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is not the product of any particular religion, but as a consequence and product of the mind of man that was designed by God.
Nice discussion going on. I am enjoying reading it... ZZZ, DrMarkan and Jesus, please keep it up. Thanks.
You are correct about my supposition, but maybe not of what religion I speak. I am waiting on some books to arrive (amazon ordered) that really delve into this very topic of discussion. It is actually a lecture series by Friedrich Max Muller. It looks at the three branches of natural religion as he calls it which are anthropoligical, physical, and psychological. What it discusses, is basically the creation of religion from the vedas to more modern religion, and how they are all intertwined. It is a discussion on the evolution of religion, but I don't believe in the normal sense of the word evolution. Anyways, the books if you are curious are called "Natural Religion vol 1 & 2", "Physical Religion", "Anthropological Religion", and "Theosophy or Psychological Religion". One other book I am trying to find without much luck at this point is a translation of the rg-veda. I think that Muller might have a translation of this too, but I wanted to wait until after I have read these other books before I look into it. From what I understand, in the Rg-veda, the first hymn even mentions a creator. It will be interesting to read these books because the vedas was around from 1500 CE. I don't know how far back it is believed that philosophical thought as we discussed in regards to the golden rule can go, but that was quite a long time ago. What I am trying to say is that I wonder if something divine set into motion the philosophical beliefs that began during this time. Was it a higher being's intervention that created this enlightenment of man, or as you say was it already his destiny to know. I hope these books will shed a little light for me in understanding the teachings of the earliest religions.
All of these have something in common: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" "Judge not, that ye may not be judged" "Remove the beam from your own eye before the splinter in your brother's eye". "Love your neighbor as yourself" "Condemn not, that you be not condemned" "You are the light of the world. Do not hide your light under a bushel". These are variations of the "Golden Rule" which attempt to explain how the law of perception works so that you can use it to free yourself from it. The law of perception is sometimes referenced as "cause and effect" or "karma". These are also attempts to explain how it works using other words. I will now explain it more clearly. First of all, perception is not natural to a Son of God, for it is what replaces knowledge, when knowledge is denied. Perception was fabricated by the Son of God in order to see himself as something other than what he is. Of course, he cannot be anything other than as he was created, so anything "seen" must be an illusion. Perception itself, then, is an illusion, and will pass away. Nothing "seen" via perception is actually seen. This is why I often used the term "blind" to describe unbelievers. Next, belief is a product of perception, because perception is to not know. Thus, in a framework of doubt, all you can do is believe something to be true. However, you deceive yourselves when you do not realize that you cannot believe anything without first desiring to value it. This is to say that desire and faith go hand in hand. It's worth repeating, all choices and beliefs within perception are about what you think you are. Perception is a house of mirrors, a labyrinth. Step one foot inside and you are all in, because truth and illusion are irreconcilable. And the first "belief" about your "new" self was that you are separate and independent from your Creator. This idea reverses Cause and effect, and perception shows you a world in which cause and effect are reversed. Once cause and effect are reversed in perception separation accelerates to your pain thresholds. "Repentance" is the point at which you set cause and effect back in order and begin the path leading out of the labyrinth...back the way you came in. At this point, you can use the law of perception for your protection, rather than your destruction...until you step out of perception and back to knowledge. "Righteousness" is merely the correcting of your perceptions in such a way that they closely match what is real, for only what is real is "right". Those who have their perception corrected are those spoken of as, "the blind shall see". Such vision is still perception, but it is lined up with reality so closely, that you see a whole new world. By the time you reach your pain thresholds, you are, to use a common phrase, "FUBR". Were it not for the Holy Spirit, you would have no way out of the labyrinth. Behold then, your Guide. He has been with you every step of the way since you first set foot upon the path of destruction. He is your Comforter, the Voice for God for you, leading you back home...if you choose. Remember, all choices are about who you think you are. The Holy Spirit was gifted the instant the Son decided to leave home and sleep. This is God's justice, blessing those who curse Him. It is the Holy Spirit of Whom I spoke, saying, "Come to me all ye who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest"...for I spoke the words of the Holy Spirit, and through Him, I and my Father are one. I mention this for a very important reason relative to this discussion on religion. There is no religion without the Guide, for the Guide discerns truth from illusion for you. This is because at the point of pain, you are not able to judge between the two. That is the reason for the injunction, "judge not"; you must rely on Guidance. For all purposes, the Guide IS religion, for that is His purpose. So long as a religion is Guided, it is healing the mind that perceives incorrectly, ie. "unrighteously". Any religion guided by who you think you are other than the Son of God, will keep you in hell, and kill what you think you are: a body. The idea of separation - the original sin - guards the gates of hell. This is really the only "sin", and I came to deny it's reality. You deny the reality of separation when you apply the Golden Rule correctly. Essentially, you are affirming that there is no separation between you and your brother, your neighbor. This concept will "prevail against the gates of hell" because the power of unity - holiness - is no match for illusions. In time and space, all events are neutral. This includes all behaviors. This reconciles a paradox: all are "sinners", and there is no sin. You forgive because there is no sin. The idea of separation and guilt is a seriously insane notion [acronym: sin], but it is a condition that is impossible relative to reality. You are the Son of God - without sin - and you cannot change that, nor be "separated from Christ", no matter what you do, or what you believe! The reality of Oneness is what will ultimately prevail...allowing this world to pass away when belief is withdrawn from it by the whole. With this perspective, you can understand Vedic and Buddistic "atheism". "God" has nothing to do with "humans" let alone "human behavior". Further, when you disregard "man" and his made up god's, you have yourself, One with All. Is it necessary that this state of being have a name? Must it be called "God", as man calls his idols? Buddha calls it "Nirvana", and all return to Nirvana, or none. This is the Golden Rule once again. I called it "Heaven" and "the Kingdom of God". But what is important for your Guidance back out of perception, is your ordering of Cause and effect. That is why I always reminded you of our "Father". He is Cause, and we are effect. Reverse this order, and...the rest is history. The Golden Rule bids you remember your brothers, and by appreciating His Son, you remember your Creator. This is the correct ordering of cause and effect. If you judge your brother to be less than the Son of God, you will become exactly as you judge him to be. If he is a body, so are you. If he is a sack of _____, so are you. If you condemn him, you go to the same hell you condemned him to. That is why I said that if you call him a "fool", you are in danger of "hellfire", because that -pain - is all there is when you will not let your brother be who he is...for that is what you are. There is a direct connection, because unity prevails, and perception is driven by looking within first. Projection results when what is seen inside is flung outside in the hopes of getting rid of that perception of yourself. Thus, when you forgive others, you actually forgive yourself...until you realize you are holy. From the perspective of holiness, you can now "see" your brother as he is...holy. Seeing him holy, you love him as you love yourself. This enriches you both. So it's the "Golden" Rule. Jesus