candletrader: I enjoy Hitman's journals and posts and I believe that he is not afraid to tell it like *he sees it*. The problem is that his tone regularly becomes disrespectful because he believes that he is telling it *like it is*. Hitman has the typical 21 year old attitude (yep, I had it) that says "there is one best way, I know what it is and it isn't the way you are doing it". Example: "There is no difference between your money and other peoples money..." Now this bit of wisdom (actually, this bit of BS) comes from a disciplined, talented and driven young man who HAS NO IDEA what it is like to put his own $150,000 on the line month after month-- yet he is perfectly willing to belittle someone elses methods based on that criteria. Dottom, Hitman is a senior member - - doesn't mean he's God. If Hitman is disrespectful, say so. And for goodness sake, stick around. JB
Dottom, I'm with Nicodemus 100%. I have found your posts to be very thought-provoking, and I appreciate the time you have taken to post your thoughts/ideas in such a thorough fashion. Keep up the good work
Dottom, Ditto the last three posts. While I enjoy reading Hitman's journal and feel he has contributed much of value, in this case, I think he was out of line and completely disrespectful. He certainly can't ask you to respect him when he certainly doesn't respect you. You replied in a way that any of us would have when attacked. You both have a lot to offer this forum and there is room for everyone here. Eventually you learn how to seperate the good from the bad. Hitman usually posts the good stuff and he won't be a kid forever. Sometimes we should just agree to disagree but it is hard for some. Please continue to post here. This site is not called EliteDiscretionaryTrader.com. I find your insights very valuable and it has taken this forum to a higher level of trading discussion/debate which benefits us all. Most here would probably agree that threads like this are much more useful than the usual "what do you think about (insert most recent broker, chat room, charting service here)?" type of threads. Kirk
Guys, as Dottom has implicitly affirmed, he will not be posting within Hitman's thread on the topic of Systems Trading. Personally I think he has made a wise decision. He should set up an Elitetrader thread specifically dedicated to Systems Trading, rather than perpetuate the acrimony within Hitman's thread... Dottom is a very valuable new member of our community and has made some very profound points... none of us would wish Dottom to leave Elitetrader... it is only right that Dottom should have his OWN thread on Systems Trading within the Elitetrader site (as per his own intent, posted above in bold)... I wish to see an end to the acrimony on Hitman's Journal thread. There is a place for ALL styles on Elitetrader, but let's not let specific threads lose their raison d'etre as a result of style-conflict induced acrimony. I look forward to a NEW thread on Elitetrader set up by Dottom and focussed on Systems Trading.
Dottom: ***Treating everyone else like shit based on your rules is counterproductive*** On the contrary, you absolutely must set a very strict parameters on whose idea you buy. For someone to be trading for 8 years and averages $250 a day, and tell other people that their technique is unsuitable at higher level of the game, that is absurd. ***If you believe that everything a discretionary trader with a high P/L says is gospel, then you are setting yourself up for failure.*** It is far better than listening to someone with a low P&L, system traders blow up too. ***Instead, I do research and discover that "for a 5-year period continuation gaps averaged a 11% move over 5 days on average of 220% increased volume on the first bar after the gap".*** And such a stat is meaningless on the next trade, every situation is different, on just about every single gap an experienced trader can tell whether it is likely to fill the gap, go further in the other direction, or it is best to pass it up., simply based on what the rest of the market/sector/leaders are doing. ***Sure they may have made 2,3,4,5x more if they wanted to, but there are concepts called money-management and risk-of-ruin.*** Wrong person to talk about risk-of-ruin with, if you are talking about consistency alone, then I currently rank top 5% (and that's after taking out unprofitable traders who I do not compare myself I against) in my firm, but if you talk about end result, I am not even top 50%. I would be more than happy to trade in some of the consistency for substantially bigger day's. ***It seems this type of chest puffing behavior is what separates many discretionary traders from the systems trader.*** When someone tell me my technique is unsuitable at higher level of the game, and doesn't have the numbers to back it up, I take it personally. Vishnu: If you can start your own thread and post result I will be extremely helpful, if just because your number more than doubles mine, not to mention it also touches a time frame that I currently do not play in but will inevitably expand to at some point. War Eagle: I actually enjoy reading Dottom's posts, just that when I see people advertise the advantage of system trading over discretionary without mentioning the flaws, I consider it a cheap shot. And respect is earned through cold hard numbers, when I put up at least a quarter million a year doing what I do, the respect will be there automatically, until then, I am a small potato in this business and I have a long way to go. Turok: It didn't take a miracle for me to be trading other people's money, and it is most certainly no charity the way our firm structures its business. If you complain that 150K of your own money is on the line, you know what, there are indeed ALTERNATIVES. Candle: As I said, respect is earned when the numbers show up, and while I don't know whether it will, I am not expecting anything until it does.
It would be nice to keep every subject in its own thread but this is pretty hard to do. If you go back and look this whole thing started with other posters asking dottom to clarify a casual comment he made. Some of the best conversations get started this way. This is freedom, guys.
>It didn't take a miracle for me to be trading other >people's money, and it is most certainly no charity >the way our firm structures its business. Please tell me now this is relevant to my point that for many people there is a HUGE difference between trading their own money or someone elses. >If you complain that 150K of your own money is >on the line, you know what, there are indeed >ALTERNATIVES. Before you attempt to dodge the bullet by again trying to stuff words in my mouth, show me a single complaint I have made about trading my own money -- I PREFER to trade my own money because contrary to your ignorant statement, FOR ME there is BIG difference between my money and someone elses. Your results may vary (and that of course is the point) JB
good thing November is almost over. not to take any sides and not to beat a dead "system vs. discretion" horse for the 999th time, but Dottom provided valuable stuff, just as Hitman did. One thing though... all you hardcore tape readers out there, sooner/later NYSE specialist system will be replaced with an open platform like the NAZ. So wouldn't hurt to start looking into systematic approaches.
He can post whatever he wants on this thread, I have absolutely no problem with that, at Monday's close you will still see my trading journal doesn't matter if there was one post or one hundred post between that and Friday's journal, if I think someone is rubbing it in on any thread, I will let them know about it. And the best way to improve is through competitions, and the best knowledge is often derived from heated arguments. When people are passionate about a subject they express themselve, and I would have said the exact same thing whether Dottom is in my face or talking to me on a message board. Let's put it this way, I am not the stubborn type, if later in my career I discover indeed that trading systems smack down discretionary, then you will see it in my journal. I am actually very open to new ideas, as I DO believe some style is better than others.
Turok: ***Please tell me now this is relevant to my point that for many people there is a HUGE difference between trading their own money or someone elses.*** For me, there is NONE, and I don't think there should be any. You are out there to win not to lose ain't you? Doesn't really matter if it is yours or anyone else's, you are not supposed to lose it. Your goal is to win and that's the focus, with that in mind it doesn't matter where the money came from when you play the game everyday. If I blew up at Worldco a year or two into my career, I don't know if I can ever recover and try it again, and I just wasted the golden age in my career for nothing, and I am probably ruined. If I worked all my life to accumulate 50K and lost it all trading, I am also ruined. For me, if I am ruined, then it doesn't matter how much I am ruined. There is either success, or failure, nothing in between. And FYI, if 7 years from now I am putting up the same numbers I am putting up right now, then you know where I will consider myself. Dozu: Last time I checked discretionary still far outnumbers systematic on Nasdaq, so I don't see the problem with that. Besides, the best of the best Nasdaq traders are probably extremely skilled with Level II (I may be wrong here as I have never traded it intraday full time), so we will have to learn some new tricks, and I am no old dog.