Never sold Naked Puts until Friday accidentally. IBKR Question.

Discussion in 'Options' started by TrailerParkTed, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. vanzandt

    vanzandt

    Pretty sure IB has a deal set up with ET here that when an 'Elite-Trader' exceeds 100 "likes", they automatically bump you up to level III on options.
    (That and they lock up the cash in your account required to buy the stock at whatever strike you sold.)
     
    #11     Nov 17, 2020
    TrailerParkTed likes this.
  2. Wrong. Covered calls and naked puts have exactly the same risk profile.

    If you are short a 100 put for $3 and the stock drops $50, you're going to get assigned for a loss of $47/share.
    If you are long stock at 100 and short a call for $3, and that stock drops $50, you have lost $47/share.

    Try looking up synthetics before you make assertions like this again.
     
    #12     Nov 17, 2020
    TimtheEnchanter likes this.
  3. Short Puts do have the same risk profile as CCs. If the stock opened down 50% or whatever you'd lose the same (if ATM strike) as holding the stock (minus the prem).

    As has been mentioned, problem comes in when over-leveraged. For example, with NIO at about 47 current Reg T margin for a 45 short put is about $1100. Compare that with overnight margin for 100 shrs at $2350. So you could short twice as many puts and get into big trouble easily.
     
    #13     Nov 17, 2020
    yc47ib likes this.
  4. lindq

    lindq

    On paper, that may well be true. But in reality, they are different animals and should be treated accordingly.

    In a covered write, you are making a decision to open the trade NOW, at the present time, given current information of the stock and market conditions.

    Conversely, with a short put, you are risking being put the underlying at an unknown time in the future when you may LEAST want to be holding that stock.

    And as Option_Attack wrote, a serious problem with short puts is that unsophisticated traders can easily get sucked into an over-leveraged situation, putting their financial future into jeopardy.

    We are all guilty, at one time or another, of ignoring worst-case scenarios that can be damaging. But in the case of short puts, that ignorance can be devastating, and is the reason why most brokers provide clear warnings and require additional trading approvals.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
    #14     Nov 17, 2020
    Option_Attack likes this.
  5. Both you and Sailor are correct... as far as it goes. Like in the situation of one or a small number of stocks where your capital account is sufficient to handle any adversity they might suffer.

    But in the scenario where the option player gets "bigger enough"... doesn't even have to be leveraged (and by leverage I mean "notional value of your option position(s) being greater than your investing capital)... the potential loss for writing puts can be much greater than writing covered calls. (And you already know the temptation to "go bigger" after making a bunch of that "easy low/no risk" naked premium money :))

    But as I don't want this to turn into a pissin' contest, I'll back out leaving you and sailor having the last word. After all, your statement is correct.... up to the point you made.
     
    #15     Nov 17, 2020
  6. With a covered call, your underlying risk is exactly the same - because the chance of that adverse event in which you "LEAST want to be holding that stock" is exactly the same. Whether you're holding it and it drops, or it drops and you get assigned, you're still taking the same loss.

    By that reasoning, if someone writes a call against their stock and then jumps off a building, the covered call caused their suicide. If you are getting "sucked into" taking stupid risks, then that's a problem that's going to destroy your account regardless of what strategy you use.

    I will note that I have somewhat of a preference for shorting puts rather than writing covered calls, because the former lets me scalp vol on short timeframes while the latter ties me to a given underlying. But that's a much more subtle difference than anything being implied here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
    #16     Nov 17, 2020
  7. cesfx

    cesfx

    Maybe a difference on extrinsic value before expiration?
    Like a naked put running into bigger pnl drawdowns due to extreme volatilty, Vs underlying dd.
     
    #17     Nov 17, 2020
  8. Little hard to visualize without graphing it, but IV changes after putting the trades on effect short puts and CCs the same (assuming same ex and strike). They are still synthetics.
     
    #18     Nov 17, 2020
    cesfx and BlueWaterSailor like this.
  9. taowave

    taowave

    Surely you jest..


     
    #19     Nov 17, 2020


  10. Naked Puts are identical to Covered Calls in terms of risk/profit. The OP's fear of Naked Puts is unfounded. He trades Covered Calls due to the "risk limit" - but the risk limit is the same for both type of trades.



    AAPL at $119.39

    COVERED CALL
    • Buy 100 shares @ $119.39 = $11,939
    • Sell 1 120.00 Dec 18,2020 call @ $3.85 = $385 credit
    • Total debit = $11,554
    NAKED PUT
    • Sell 1 117.50 Dec 18,2020 put @ $3.20 = $320 credit

    AAPL to $150.00
    • COVERED CALL $446 profit
    • NAKED PUT $320 profit

    AAPL to $90.00
    • COVERED CALL $2,554 loss
    • NAKED PUT $2,430 loss
     
    #20     Nov 17, 2020