i don't believe these people are actually dead--that is what i mean by my last line. our med. instruments are just not advanced enough to detect EVERY sign of life. surfer
{{sigh}} I guess we can add illiteracy to your long list of cognitive problems.. From my reference: "Ketamine produces an altered state of consciousness which is very different from that of the 'psychedelic' drugs such as LSD (Grinspoon and Bakalar, 1981). It can reproduce all features of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into light, the conviction that one is dead, 'telepathic communion with God', hallucinations, out-of-body experiences and mystical states (see ketamine references above). If given intravenously, it has a short action with an abrupt end. Grinspoon and Bakalar (1981, p34) wrote of: '...becoming a disembodied mind or soul, dying and going to another world. Childhood events may also be re-lived. The loss of contact with ordinary reality and the sense of participation in another reality are more pronounced and less easily resisted than is usually the case with LSD. The dissociative experiences often seem so genuine that users are not sure that they have not actually left their bodies." "The anaesthesia is the result of the patient being so 'dissociated' and 'removed from their body' that it is possible to carry out surgical procedures. This is wholly different from the 'unconsciousness' produced by conventional anesthetics, although ketamine is also an excellent analgesic (pain killer) by a different route (i.e. not due to dissociation). Ketamine is related to phencyclidine (PCP). Both drugs are arylcyclohexylamines - they are not opioids and are not related to LSD. In contrast to PCP, ketamine is relatively safe, is much shorter acting, is an uncontrolled drug in most countries, and remains in use as an anaesthetic for children in industrialised countries and all ages in the third world as it is cheap and easy to use. Anaesthetists prevent patients from having NDE's ('emergence phenomena') by the co-administration of sedatives which produce 'true' unconsciousness rather than dissociation" What words don't you understand shoe? It is becoming more difficult to take seriously anything you say or think shoe. i believe my intial impressions of you as a crank are well founded. :-/
And here's another thought-provoker: let's say we're all just "animals on a big rock in space." Then I ask the following questions: 1. Why would our evolved brains all commonly produce an highly complex visual simulation of telepathy with spirit beings or God? 2. And why would our brains send us careening doen through a tunnel? 3. And why would our brains pop us out in almost perfect 3D dimensionality above our bodies so that we can llok around the room, environment that we are in? 4. Finally, why would we do a life review? None of this makes sense to me from an evolutionary standpoint. But it does make sense if the body is pre-built to "prepare itself to die"...
WOW We're off and running now arent we... WEEEEEEE! Isnt mysticism fun! One get such wholesome returns of conjecture with such a trifling investment of thought!
Okay - I didn't know about the OOB's and ketmaine. (I freely admit I'm not an expert.) But, that said, I still ask what about the cases where the OOB experiencer can corroborate details about their environment that would be impossible from their physical vantage point? I don't see how you can so easily dismiss all these eye witness accounts. It's easy to argue your position if you throw out anything that challenges your world view with a wave of your hand, but suppose just for a second that there is a spiritual side of life: how will you ever know if you dismiss all eye witness accounts and do not trust anyone to tell you the truth? I'm not saying not to be skeptical. I actually think that's good. But I don't think it is logical to throw out all eye witness account summarily..
Definition: Fallacious appeals to authority take the general form of: 1. Person (or people) P makes claim X. Therefore, X is true. Example: "There are currently about a dozen or so well-respected researchers (almost entirely non-Christian M.D.'s and Ph.D. psychologists) who are very seriously studying NDE's and feel that they definitely have solid evidence for a spiritual side of man and the afterlife."
Good point. I was a little too strong in my wording there. I should have said "they have evidence worth considering".
But, that said, I will say that the majority of the NDE researchers are M.D.'s. I'm sure they can make a lot more money with their M.D. than from selling a few hundred thousand NDE books!
you know i think you might be right but one question i think we need to answer is.. If minds were leaving their bodies you'd expect there would be minds out of their bodies everywhere. A mix up occasionally with minds entering wrong physical body maybe getting their silver cords all tangled up. You'd expect some minds to get completely lost never finding their way back to any body whatsoever. That would leave mindless bodies wandering or lying around without souls or minds. There should also be a few confused souls who dont know who they are because they're minds are in wrong bodies. :eek: Tough questions to answer.. but i think they're very very important. whadda you think shoe ..
Now wait a minute: I think that was a fair question. If there is a spiritual side of life, the NDE experience is quite reasonable in my opinion, i.e. what we might expect. But what on earth can be the reason for all this elaborate and highly advanced features of an NDE? In other words, what possible strategic advantege could ther be in preparing an animal to die? Once the critter is dead, it's dead! Why would evoltuionary processes tamper witha d'bout-to-die animal?