Look guys, you are seeing everything as black and white when in reality there is a lot of gray out there. For example, at Worldco, we had guys that did not put up any capital. And we had guys that put up 5k to 15k. Generally we gave all the Ivy League guys a free pass. So was Worldco a real prop firm or half of one, or what? See what I'm saying? It's not so easy to define these firms. What about this scenario. What about the firm where you put up nothing but they make you retain 20k or 30k of your money in the account as you made it to protect against drawdowns? We also did this at Worldco. We made ALL traders keep 35k in their accounts at all times. We just kept a portion of their paychecks until they were fully capped. How is that different from putting the 35k up front? It's your money either way. What about the firm that helps you raise money from outside investors, i.e. fund incubation? They are not providing you any capital but neither are you. So???? What about the deal where you put up money and the firm matches that on the downside, i.e you go through your 15k then the firm allows you to go 15k into their money? See there is a lot of gray out there. You guys want to simplify everything too much. And another thing, you guys act like it's so easy to go and find a fully backed prop deal. I can tell you right now, there are few out there. I talk to everyone in Chicago. I have 500 resumes on my desk from traders at Spike, Kingstree, Jump, Rosenthal, Breakwater, Allston, SMW, etc. These shops are ghost towns. Very few guys still around. Most of them trading outdated strategies, no mentorship, and even if they didn't put up capital, few of them are taking home checks after they pay their 5k a month desk fees and sky high commisions. So what's the point? It doesn't change the fact that very few people make money at this. No amount of whining will change that.