MurreyMath

Don't know why I'm bothering to respond to this, but I guess William Eckhardt and Jack Schwager are purely ignorant too. Eckhardt has a few hundred mil under management, Schwager had 80 mil last time I checked. From new market wizards:

Eckhardt: ...."There's a simple consideration that absolutely invalidates all such angles-of-certain-size methods in a single swipe: The size of an angle on a bar chart is not invariant to changes of scale. For instance, consider the technique of drawing a line from the low of a move at a 45-degree angle. If you do this on two charts of the same contract but with different time and price scales, say from two different services, the 45-degree lines will be different. They will subsequently intersect the price series in different places. In fact, the angle of a line joining two prices on a bar chart is not a property of the price series at all. It depends completely on what units you use for price and time and how you space them on the chart, all of which are quite arbitrary. There are good methods and bad methods, but these angle techniques are no method..... the lack of intrinsic meaning of angles on a bar chart has significance even for chart-oriented traders who do not employ angles. How sharply a trend slopes on a chart is often a psychological consideration in making a trade. If you fall prey to this influence, you're letting the chart maker's practical and aesthetic considerations impinge on your trading. Any trend can be made to look gentle or steep by adjusting the price scale."

Schwager: "I've always been amazed by how many people are either oblivious to the scale-dependent nature of chart angles or unconcerned about its ramifications. My realization of the inherent arbitrariness of slope-of-line methods is precisely why I've never been willing to spend even five minutes on Gann angles or works by the proponents of this methodology."


If I am an ignoramus, I take small comfort in the fact that two twenty year veterans managing hundreds of millions with proven scientific and analytical backgrounds are obvious ignoramuses as well.

If you are averaging 15 points a day per contract (minimum!) day in and day out, with use of nothing other than a few Gann angles, then you are a far better trader than I. So much better, in fact, that I am not fit to tie your shoes. I dare say your feat is akin to running a 30 second mile, throwing a 140mph fastball, or bench pressing 3,000 pounds. I can't even conceive with my small and limited brain how such a feat is possible given the natural restraints that general reality imposes. But I will not put my foot in my mouth again- instead of offering a further challenge, I will go and reflect on what I must be missing in my deep ignorance.

And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana shaped.

 

Wally,

here are a couple: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gannstudygroup/

http://www.lambertganneducators.com/

 

darkhorse,

those are indeed giants in the field that you qoute. however, they are misinformed concerning gann.

best,

surf

 

I appreciate your pointers.

 

Not here to start a fight, but you mentioned that Schwager and Co. commented on the SCALE dependent nature of the angles, and they are absolutely correct.

That is why the charts must be SQUARED before the angles are applied.

So I guess they missed that too.

Some very good traders may simply choose to trade their own funds rather that deal with the regulations of managing other peoples money.

So I am not sure I see what managing other peoples money has to do with their ability to trade, perhaps they are simply very good at PR. Maybe they are good traders, who knows.

Me, I am more than good enough to make my own money grow.

 

Oops!

I attributed those comments to the wrong person. Sorry about that.

 

excellent points, oddiduro. there is a professional money manager who manages over 500 million who uses the "gann wheel" as part of his analysis. this individual is very private and i can't divulge his name. so darkhorse, there are traders larger than the one's you list who utilize gann.

best,

surfer

 

Well... just pitch the angles...

 

Eckhardt and Schwager may be small fry, but they throw down a mean argument. If chart angles are inherently a function of the time/price axis, which appears to undoubtedly be the case, how does squaring help? How do you derive statistical significance from a relationship wholly separate from the actual data you are studying?

I found an article that promised explanation (below), but only seemed to confuse me more...

Maybe http://www.joannesway.com can help me...

oh well... see y'all on the Z-plane...

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The Square of Nine is undoubtedly the most mysterious and popular of W. D. Gann’s financial market calculators. There is something about this strange number wheel which intrigues all who see it, whether they be market enthusiasts or school children. There have probably been more courses written about the Square of Nine than any other of Gann’s trading tools, yet there has been very little actually said.

One wonders what it is about this spiral number chart that so peaks everyone’s interest. Is it simply the promise of great fortune for decoding the secret calculator of a legendary market master? Or is there something more subtle, something mysterious, ancient, and unknown that resonates deeper in the being of those intrigued by this chart? Upon exploration, we are pleasantly surprised to find that the Square of Nine is something that extends far beyond being simply an interesting trading tool of a legendary forecaster. In fact the Square of Nine has a history which extends into the far reaches of antiquity, deep into its ancient mysteries and sacred sciences.

It is said that Gann discovered the Square of Nine in India, a story that has not been verified, but would not be surprising since the Square of Nine may be found all over India. In Hindu temples throughout the land, there are small 5 x 5 squares (the inner square of the Square of 9) next to the doorways, with the squares serving as small containers filled with the earth and various botanical and natural elements of the region, while the temples themselves are designed according to exactly the same pattern.

This leads us to an ancient Vedic diagram called the Parmasayika Grid (Figure 1) which divides the Hindu Pantheon according to the measures of the “Purusha” (unmanifest creative potential) of the primal cosmic man, the “Anthropocosmos”. In this diagram a lotus grows out of the naval of the cosmic man, at the exact center of the grid. This lotus is “Brahma” the universal vital principle, extending itself out through the lotus blossom into the multi-dimensional grid of the manifesting universe. Since vegetable growth, along with all life, extends itself in spiral motion, it would circumambulate the grid from center ring to outer, just as price and time do on Gann’s calculators. As the lotus grows, it progresses from the greater deities at the center to the lesser deities at the outer edge, the deities representing in the sacred tradition, universal laws and principles by which all that is born and exists in manifest space-time is governed. See Figure 1.

This universal vital principle, “Brahma”, which comes forth from the center as the lotus flower extending itself into 3 dimensional space-time, is pure consciousness projecting itself into form according to mathematical relationships and harmonies. This projection can take on individual and physical form like a tree or a person, or it can be a group form like a business, a school or even an essentially non-physical thought form like a financial market. That group form is composed of all of the thought, work, energy and activity of any kind that is connected with that particular pattern of form. Hence, soybeans and charts of soybean behavior are graphical representation of the conglomerate of thought energy about soybeans, expressed as price behavior and driven by buying and selling, or hope and fear as Gann put it, craving and aversion in the Buddha’s terms. Financial markets then, are barometers of mass human consciousness, and soybean charts are maps of the motion or activity of human soybean consciousness as it progresses through time.

Changes in a particular form or entity occur as a result of the sum of the effects of all energies internal and external as they relate to or influence that form. In seeking to forecast the financial markets, one must develop some understanding of the forces that effect the form and how they operate, so that one can anticipate changes through knowing their causes. Various techniques of market analysis represent certain perspectives of perception of these influences and the reactions to them of a particular thought pattern, like soybeans. Thus, price charts of the financial markets are representations of universal forces as expressed through the medium of human consciousness concentrated in a particular pattern. This is what is meant by the universal vital principle, “Brahma,” which extends itself through every human, plant, animal, insect, planet, and cell, throughout everything in the cosmos, for it is the principle of action in the Now, the Verb which is the Function, which determines the nature of these particular patterns of Form existent in the manifest universe.

In The Hindu Temple, Stella Kramrisch presents the ground plan for Hindu temples since ancient Vedic times, called the Vastupurusamandala (Figure 2), again our Square of 9, defining it as, “the place for the meeting and marriage of heaven and earth, where the whole world is present in terms of measure, and is accessible to man…” She explains that its essential form is a square which, “can be converted into a triangle, a hexagon, octagon and circle of equal area and retain its symbolism…” Sounds strikingly similar to Gann’s Coffee Rio, Hexagon, and 360 Degree Charts. She further explains that, “the Vastu of 64 squares is meant for the construction of shrines and for worship by Brahmanas, and the Vastu of 81 squares is for the construction of other buildings and for worship on behalf of kings.” Here with the 8 x 8 square, we discover Gann’s Square of 4, the inner square of the Square of 8, as the alternative to the Square of 9, perhaps giving us an explanation for Gann’s use of 8 x 8 grid paper for his charts. Kramrisch continues, “the square of the Vastupurusamandala is divided into small squares and in diagonals…their points of intersection are the vital parts and tender spots (marma) of the site…these must not be hurt or interfered with…”, Gann’s familiar crosses forming the “hot spots” on the Square of 9. See Figure 2.

However, we may still wonder what exactly these sensitive “marma” points are measuring; how is this “marriage of heaven and earth” quantified? An ancient Hindu architectural text dedicates its wisdom, “for the pleasure of the astronomers and astrologers, as it has been transmitted from Brahma to our days through an unbroken series of sages. Building is begun under favorable stars. They are consulted when the ground is taken possession of and when the rite of depositing the Germ of the temple is performed. The regents of the planets and the stars have their allocation in the diagram of the temple and their images are carved on its walls. By them are regulated the measurement of the whole building and its parts; the life of the donor, and the age of the temple too. The temple is built in the likeness of the universe and is its reduced image.”

Growth within the builder’s grid ensues from a specific point of birth, and exactly at the point when the seed is germinated and growth initiated, the planets and stars are carved into their positions on the walls of the grid. On the walls of Gann’s grid we find the 360° circle of the zodiac, marking the motions of the planets and stars, and the birth point is likewise an essential key for Gann, for it is the beginning point of the number count in the square, and essential for casting a proper natal chart. The Square of 9 is an instrument which calculates the mathematical measure of the growth of a form from a germination point, and correlates the motion or growth of that form with the astronomical and astrological influences governing it, allowing the analyst to read the stages of and influences upon the development of the Stupa, lotus, form or market.

Daniel Ferrera in his new course, The Gann Pyramid: Square of Nine Essentials, beautifully describes the various functions of the Square of 9 as a mathematical and astronomical calculator. He also points out that the Square of 9 is not to be perceived in only its two-dimensional perspective, but as a pyramid, spiraling from the center around and down to the outer ring at the base of the pyramid. This ties in nicely with our understanding of natural growth and its relationship to the extension of Brahma through the lotus, temple or market. Manifest form projects itself into the three dimensions of space and time in the form of a three-dimensional conic, not a two-dimensional spiral. Therefore we should perceive the growth of our form taking on extension in the Z-plane forming a vortex, whirlpool, or conic spiral as it rotates through the mathematical grid of planetary and stellar influences......
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Because the angles are based on a situation where the price and time axis were equivalent.

That means the 45 degree angle was not based on a rectangle, which is what your monitor shows, but on a square. Gann used standard engineering graphing paper to draw his charts, so that time and space could be accurately measured.

Try to visualize price moving toward you as it falls, and away from you as it rises, and this will give you the perception of the conical helix, as you improve with practice.

Each spiral in the helix is seen as a circle in two dimensions, and because of the nature of charts, that circle has to be accurately portrayed. This is done by "squaring the circle".

Hope this helps.