You "don't condone" yet you say it is "surely understandable". Yes. Much the same was as I'd understand a broken hearted husband, feeling he'd lost all, killing his cheating wife, while, at the same time, not condoning it; ie, still punishing him for the crime. Alfonso, it is time to cease trying to make your case. "Balanced discussion"? There is nothing "balanced" at all about your arguments. They are clearly anti-semitic, and historically inaccurate. I should not even attempt to persuade you with facts. Because facts have been ignored by your side of the argument essentially since the day Islam came to be. Why would it be time to cease making my case? Because I'm coming too close for comfort? If there is "nothing balanced" about my argument, it's only because I find nothing "balanced" about the way the state of Israel was created. I can hardly be called anti-Semitic, since I'm obviously supporting the Arab cause; unless you are using the pilfered defintion of Semetic. But even then, if "anti-semite" means being opposed to anything Jewish on principle alone, then I am certainly not; but if being "anti-semite" means being opposed to way the the state of Israel was created, and the Israeli people's and politicians' actions after the victory, with respect to the Palestinians, then ok, I'm an "anti-semite". I really hope you reconsider attempting to persuade me with facts. Afterall, it's facts that have led me to support the position I do; and only facts will persuade me to abdandon it. Certainly nothing else will. But just not to walk in, shut the door in your face and leave, I will say this. There were Jews in what is now Israel always. They too were displaced, returned, displaced, returned etc. Hmm, I think I acknowledged that. Don't you think, though, that we have to take into account the factor of Time? Ask any anthropologist about the necessity of time in creating cultural and customary "norms". So, if we take Time into account, we would have to acknowledge that ARABS, not Jews, were the inhabitants of Palestine at the turn of the 20th century; that there were only a handful of Jews in comparison to the vast majority Arab population; and that it had been this way for centuries. Surely in light of that any historical Jewish claims are tenuous at best. (Would you care to apply the same reasoning to indigenous American claims to land in New York?) There were also Arabs in that region for thousands of years. However, there was never a "Palestinian" anywhere on the planet until 1948. When the term came about as a further excuse for the Arab world to "drive Israel into the sea". Oh really? Gee, I was under the impression that the region had been known as Palestine since Roman times. In any case, it's the fact that the Arab inhabitants of that land were displaced by the Jewish conquest that is the issue here;what the inhabitants of that land choose to call themselves is beside the point. Some ARABS were displaced, yes. But the vast majority left willingly because they were promised that the Jews would be massacred and then they could return to their homeland and have it all. It did not work out that way. And these "Palestinian" refugees, who were promised a swift Arab victory, were hung out to dry by their fellow Arabs. They were NOT accepted into their neighboring Arab countries. So they became refugees among their "own people". In other words, they were put into camps and not permitted to assimilate into Egypt, Syria, Jordan (which was supposed to be "Palestine") or Lebanon. The countries that bordered Israel. The "Palestinian" issue became essentially an excuse to keep the hatred of the Jews and their independent state alive. Hmm, are you really sure about that? Are you sure you haven't just swallowed whole the patriotic propaganda? Of all the Jewish lies, the voluntary exodus of the Arabs is probably the biggest. Doesn't your wife work for the Jewish lobby or something to do with Israel? I really thought you'd be more informed than this. How, in light of Israeli documents that demonstrate the expulsion was a pre-planned and part of the wider goal of establishing a Jewish state for the Jews, can you continue pretending that the exodus was anything but forced? Read some Avi Schlaim or Benny Morris or Tom Segev (all Jews). In any case, just ask yourself, don't you think it sounds more than a little bit ridiculous to think that thousands upon thousands of Palestinians would leave their homes in order to...? What? Be able to come back and reclaim them? Why the hell go to all that trouble if you are already there, and allowed to stay (as you claim)? Hell, EVEN IF they did leave based on the idea that the Arabs would band together and expel the Jews -- afterall, this was a WAR, let's not forget -- does that STILL mean that they should not be allowed to return? Even though the Geneva Convention holds that a person born in a certain region has the right to live there? And yes, the Palestinians by and large (except for Jordan in 1950) weren't accepted into the neighboring Arab countries, but so what? What does that have to do with anything? Is that somehow supposed to mitigate Israel's refusal to let them return? In 1967, Israel was again attacked on all fronts, just as they were in 1948. This time, Israel retained conquered land, as had every nation in every war in all of history. In 1973, the Arabs gave it another shot. (They also had an unsuccessful campaign in 1956.... A whole world full of Islamic French soldiers?) But in the interest of pursuing peace, Isreal returned the Sinai to Egypt and has tried to return essentially to the "green line". But they have not because, as has been pointed out, in this thread, and demonstrated to the world, Arafat does not want peace. Yeah, Israel was attacked. Well, what did you expect? You could just barge in, expel a population from its ancestral home and expect things to be hunky dory? So it's about Muslims and Jews being enemies. The Arab world cannot tolerate the existence of Israel. further, it gives the Arabs (who have plenty of infighting going on amongst themselves) a fine common enemy. And beyond the Arab world, as in Iran, there is also hatred for Israel. No political threat. No Persians displaced from "Palestine". Just hatred of the Jews. Official Muslim policy. Says so right in the Koran. Whether the Arab, or Muslim, world can tolerate Jews or not is of little consequance to the matter at hand. I don't support the Arab cause because I find Jews intolerable -- although, if I was forced out of my own country, I might -- but because the Palestinians were, by every fair measure of the word, wronged and robbed.
Arafat claims to have been born in Jerusalem. But the fact is, his own history is pretty murky. Conveniently. But there seems to be convincing evidence that Arafat is indeed of Egyptian heritage. But the place of the man's birth is really irrelevant. He is the leader of the PLO....oops, I mean the PA, and represents all the "oppressed Palestinians" that the rest of the Arab and Islamic world sympathizes with so deeply. As long as they don't have to take them in. I'm not following you: could you explain the relevance of any of this to me? The answer is clear. I said this before in a debate with Traderfut2000. If the Arabs put down their arms, there will be no more war in the Middle East. If the Israelis put down their arms, there will be no more Israel in the Middle East. [/b No more war, but what WILL there be? That is the question on the Palestinian's lips. How many more broken promises will he have to endure? How much more incursion on what is left of his territory will he have to suffer? Israel stands ready to return the Golan, and the West Bank. And Gaza. Some settlements are too entrenched to just dismantle and abandon overnight. Because this conflict has just gone on too damn long. But eventually, the Israelis know that they need to retreat to the "green line". But they will never yield to terrorism. And the terrorists (really those who sponsor them) know this. "This conlict has gone on too long". What a cute dodge. Let me translate that for everyone else: Israel has maintained its jeolous grip on power in the region for too long. Israel has for too long incited violence by settling Jews on Palestinian territory. Israel has for too long violated Palestinian human rights. (The UN is only too aware of this, but the good friend USA keeps vetoing any condemnation -- what a "peace broker"). It's not about "yielding to terrorism". (9.11 must be the greatest thing in the world for the Sharon government). It's about recognising that Israel was in the wrong from day one, and it's high time that they made up for the wrong doing of the past. Keeping the hatred alive serves the regimes of Israel's neighbors safe from their own people. How can the Saudis (for example) waste their time hating their own leadership when their hatred for Israel is so consuming? Same with all the Arab nations. What did Iraq under Saddam have in common with Iran other than hatred for Israel? Or with Syria? Or any of them. Every one of these Arab countries are led by dictators. Only Israel is a democracy in that part of the world (with questionable and basically insignificant exceptions like Kuwait and Qatar, and some other tiny countries that do not have armies or predominantly poor and uneducated populations). Help me out here RS: Just what does this have anything to do with the issue? Are you suggesting that it's the other Arab nations that are preventing the Palestinians from making peace with Israel? The only way I'd be prepared to buy that twisted logic is if Israel offered a peace plan that: a) allowed the refugees to return b) gave back ALL the occupied territories, with no 3, 5, or 10 year "withdrawal clauses"; and an EQUITABLE land swap for areas in which settlements are too entrenched to be uprooted (not like the joke of a land swap that was offered last time.) c) made provisions to share East Jerusalem (and that is being generous, on the part of the Palestinians), or were, at least prepared to negotiate on its status. That, essentially, satisfies the general Palestinian demands; that's what a REAL peace settlement needs to include. (in my opinion). Otherwise, the war is still on. Actually, that's something most people don't seem to realize; that it's as though everything was peaceful in Palestine and Israel, but those damn Arabs keep disturbing it. No. The war never actually ended. Not for the Palestinians. It's THIS peace settlement that will end the conflict (what Camp David II tried to do). The Arabs (or Palestinians if you prefer the term) who stayed in Israel have enjoyed freedom, prosperity (until recently...now the Fatah has swept them away financially along with the rest of the Israelis), and the right to vote and participate in and be represented in the government (which is pretty extraordinary considering Israel is a technically a theocracy). I also believe that Isreal is the only country in the Middle East in which Islamic woman are permitted to vote. True, but please don't try and make out like they are anything but 2nd class citizens. However, none of what I have said means a damn thing in the end. Because indeed, hell will freeze over before there can be a peace where there is no motivation for it. And again, business has been good for the Royal families and the dictators keeping the status quo. Well RS, you're a Jew, so I can understand it's tough for you to face reality. But come on man, simply blaming the Palestinians, or Arabs in general, for failure to reach peace is an absolute joke and you know it.
WE RENOUNCE ISRAEL RIGHTS Thursday August 8, 2002 The Guardian. We are Jews, born and raised outside Israel, who, under Israel's "law of return", have a legal right to Israeli residence and citizenship (Real lives, G2, August 7). We wish to renounce this unsought "right" because: 1) We regard it as morally wrong that this legal entitlement should be bestowed on us while the very people who should have most right to a genuine "return", having been forced or terrorized into fleeing, are excluded. 2) Israel's policies towards the Palestinians are barbaric - we do not wish to identify ourselves in any way with what Israel is doing. 3) We disagree with the notion that Zionist emigration to Israel is any kind of "solution" for diaspora Jews, anti-Semitism or racism - no matter to what extent Jews have been or are victims of racism, they have no right to make anyone else victims. 4) We wish to express our solidarity with all those who are working for a time when Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip can be lived in by people without any restrictions based on so-called racial, cultural, or ethnic origins. We look forward to the day when all the peoples of the area are enabled to live in peace with each other on this basis of non-discrimination and mutual respect. Perhaps some of us would even wish to live there, but only if the rights of the Palestinians are respected. To those who consider Israel a "safe haven" for Jews in the face of anti-Semitism, we say that there can be no safety in taking on the role of occupier and oppressor. We hope that the people of Israel and their leaders will come to realise this soon. Michael Rosen Ian Saville Prof Irene Bruegel Michael Kustow Mike Marqusee Prof Steven Rose Leon Rosselson and 38 others
Alfonso, u Arab-loving terrorist sympathizer... Stop your anti-semitism, pronto dude... its unacceptable on civilized forums such as ET...
Comrade Alfonso, It would take me hours to just try and correct all of your mistakes & misconceptions. Error 404 gave it a good try, but I don't think any of it got through to you. You even think that the Arab terrorism 'began in the 70's', when the <b>entire</b> unarmed Jewish community of Hebron was Islamically massacred in 1929 by the 'blameless' Arabs. If the true story ever interests you: http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html http://www.masada2000.org/palestine-myth.html http://www.masada2000.org/been-had.html http://www.masada2000.org/pal-refugees.html
>>We are Jews, born and raised outside Israel, who, under Israel's "law of return", have a legal right to Israeli residence and citizenship (Real lives, G2, August 7). We wish to renounce this unsought "right" << I doubt that there is anyone in Israel who would lose a night's sleep about a handful of nutters. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. Alfonso I am trying to understand where you are coming from. You appear to display much more empathy for the Palestinians than their fellow Arabs in the surrounding countries. No one really appears to care much for them other than to use them for their own particular purposes. (Yes, there are camps for them but they live in abysmal conditions hoping that their Leader will save the day for them. I also note however that their fellow brother Arabs havenât allowed the Palestinians, who live in the refugee camps, to assimilate with the general population). More than half of Jordan's population are Palestinians and even they don't appear to have much sympathy for the other Palestinians. They just donât seem to want them there making trouble. I guess they prefer to live in peace and get on with their life. If I remember correctly, Arafat lived for some time in Jordan but was forced to leave because of his activities. Alfonso, what do YOU think is the reason that so many thinking people in the West have so little or no respect for the Palestinians ? Alfonso, I also note that you havenât really come up with any feasible solutions to make peace. It is clear and obvious that there is no way that Israel would agree to allow the second and third generation to return. Compensation ? Perhaps. Return no. Unfair ? Perhaps but quite understandable and making perfect sense to me considering the stated aim of the Palestinians. (i.e. to - literally â drive the Israelies into the sea). Jews have lived in that area for generations. They have a right to live there. In peace I should add. freealways
70s was just a wild guess, I must admit. (Well, not all that "wild", but you get it.) Are we gonna trade horror stories now? I'm not sure exactly what that's going to resolve. Anyway, rest assured that I'll check out all your sources. I really don't have any stake at all in supporting one side over the other, I'm much more interested in ascertaining what actually happened. So, in light of that, I'll have to apologize to the likes of you, RS, free, even hapaboy, and recheck what I think I know, as the Arab-Israeli conflict was one of the first international issues to grab my attention, a couple of years ago, and it is possible that I may have been too one-sided in my initial research (which is what I'm basing my opinion on this thread on.)
Yes, maybe you GOT at least that much out of what I said. Because certainly you seem pretty closed minded about the rest of what I said. So again, Yes, that is true. The other Arab nations (or rather their leaders) absolutely benefit from the prevention of peace between the "Palestinians" and the Israeli Jews. Congratulations on getting the connection. You are showing signs of progress!! Did you look at the websites Reardon Metal posted? You talk about "Palestine" being an ancient land of an indigenous "Palestinian" people. You can attempt to re - write history, but of course, reality makes that difficult. "Palestinians" are Arabs that happened to live in the area that is now Israel at a particular time in history. Not with any strong roots, for if they truly had, they would not have been so willing to leave and let their fellow Arabs take care of business by just promising a swift end to the Jewish state in 1948. I don't know about you, but I would not be so willing to leave a land I considered to be my "homeland" to make way for "rescuers". I, along with others like me, would stay and fight for what was mine (if I truly believed it). Of course, nomadic people tend to do things a bit differently. But since there never was a definition of a "Palestinian", we don't really know if they were primarily nomads or not. We don't really know much about them. Since they never existed as a single culture. It is important to take into consideration exactly what this little strip of desert was like before the Jews settled there and made it into something special. If the Jews had defended their "unjust settlement" of this little desert, and not have improved it and irrigated it, and made it an oasis in the middle of the arid and inhospitable kind of land it was (as we saw Iraq to be during the war....other than in Saddam's cities....and they have 2 fresh water rivers to make things easier), would the "Palestinians" be so anxious to return? They fled what was really a pretty shitty place, and want now to return to a man made oasis. The same can be done in any part of the Middle East with effort. It's just easier to take what was accomplished by others, and cry about it than to actually make an effort of one's own. I guess 55 years isn't enough time to get a good effort started though. Easier to sit in refugee camps and complain and think up constructive tactics like suicide bombing and killing of civilians than to pick up a shovel or a textbook. You talk about America having taken the land from the indigenous native Americans. No doubt you have a point. But even though the "Indians" got screwed, they have had the chance to leave the reservations and assimilate if they wish to. Was the whole deal fair? No, but the past is the past. America has its shameful share of history. This is part of that. But we go forward. Too close for comfort? No idea what this means. But as far as how Israel come to be created, it was voted into existence by the only World organization at the time. The UN. And even so, it was pretty much accepted as an nobel but empty gesture. Sure, let's give the Jews a homeland. They suffered during the Holocaust. But it won't matter, because the Arab world will eliminate the place in a day or two. Everyone goes home happy, except the uppity few Jews who will fight and die as they are driven into the sea. But again, the incompetence of the Arab armies was underestimated. No leadership, no strategy, no tactics....just orders..."kill Jews". So they lost. Went 0 for 4. But because the Egyptian Army was a total failure, the "Palestinians" lost their hope. The Egyptians ran and hid. Couldn't get it together until they came up with Sadat. So the Arabs killed him. What a magnificent way to to run a "moral" and "military" campaign. Yeah, the other Arab counties contributed their ineptitude, but Egypt was the big kahunah back then. Meanwhile, the Palestinians themselves did not get to fight. Not as returning "crusaders"....they were the "damsels in distress" relegated to staying cooped up in their camps while the "heroic" Egyptian army was going to their rescue (running out of gas, stealing each others shoes, all very impressive). The "Palestinians" were not considered "equals" by their friends, the Arabs of the surrounding nations. How many times does this need to be gone over? I know I am unfairly knocking a people. The Arab people are for the most part really a decent people. But they are just terribly misled and terribly treated by their leaders. It isn't the people. It's the governments. And really, there is just as strong a case to be made for Islam being a tolerant and peaceful religion as there is to be made for it being a culture dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the Jews. Open to interpretation. And whatever interpretation serves the best interests of those in control (or those who want to be, like Al Qaeda), is how it will go. Until there is SOME ONE, or SOME ORGANIZATION that will rise up and see that PEACE is the answer. Then there will be a miraculous re-defining of the Koran on a universal basis. Won't be the first time. Given the choice, they (the Arab people) would rather be governed by just about any one other than what they are stuck with now. Even by the Jews in many (if not most cases). Everyone wants a taste of freedom. And progress. I know these words are all wasted effort. It takes no more than to read your Abraham Lincoln quote in your signature to understand that anything American is, to you, racist, unfair, despicable, and unjust. So if Isreal is our ally in the Middle East, then their right to exist is just wrong. It must be a lot of fun coming on this board which consists primarily of Americans (and we virtually ALL are descended from countless other cultures, but have managed to merge into the only superpower on earth), and show us our hypocritical essence with your Lincoln quote. Enjoy your instigating and disruptive ways. They don't bother us, because we know we are not, and never have been perfect. We are a work in progress. Sort of like Israel. But better to be wrong and correct our ways and go forward than to bitch about everything and blame others for the world's troubles as you enjoy doing. Abraham Lincoln. Scoundrel, racist and insensitive lout. You make your point. We are evil, and we (along with Israel) should be blamed for the world's ills. You are right. I am a Jew. I went to Germany and the people there could not have been nicer or more pleasant. I don't hate them for what their grandparents were part of. Or their great grandparents. And they are openly ashamed of that chapter in their history, as we are in our chapter in regards to slavery. I was also in Poland. Today, they still spit on Jews who go to see the concentration camps. This is your suggestion of where the Jewish state should have been established rather than in Israel? Tell me Alfonso, what is your heritage? I believe you are in South America...is that right? Are you Mayan? Inca? Nasca? Or are you of the fine old Mengeles tribe?
You consistently make wild guesses, as you are just a punk kid with a huge leftist communist ego who always thinks he is right. You argue for shit. Fool.
LOL. Looks who's talking. Review my posts in this thread -- including the above "guess" (one!) -- and compare them to the naked BS that you posted and tell me who is arguing for shit. Moron.