You obviously have not been to Portland. Portland is not your average American city. You can say that America is not as great as it was. You can fantasize up some perfect revisionist dream. Then you can ask yourself how America ranks in terms of per capita income.
You're completely missing the point. I have no intention of "revising" anything, nor does what I'm saying relate to per capita income in any meaningful way.
No its not. In many ways its better than your average american city. Like it or not - you apparently dont - Portland and Oregoners in general, have a different set of priorities than people in New York City, or the eastern or midwestern or southern United States. The western united states has several different local cultures . If you dont know the details surrounding the state of jefferson, western water and property rights, or in general have never lived in the southwest or pacific northwest or (for lack of a better classification) Oregon, then you probably are not really qualified to introduce mere perception as an accurate assessement of the western political environment.
These debt numbers say nothing about debt quality. There is a difference between throwing money down the drain and making smart investements for the future. I think in this country we're just throwing money down the drain by spending it on: war, welfare for the irresponsible poor, and welfare for the irresponsible rich. Most other countries probably tend to invest more in infastructure, education, healthcare, etc. - they will get a return on investment but i doubt we will.
As a matter of fact Portland's per capita income ($32,152) is slightly higher than the country's per capita income ($31,472). http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/MPINewsRelease.htm Let alone the fact that the concept of per capita income is misleading due to a growing gap between the rich and the rest of the country. Median income is a better measure of middle class prosperity, it's not that great any more and it's getting worse.
This is a fascinating discussion. I will add a few of my points. Itâs almost a moot point that government jobs are expanding, and one of the best ways to profit is to serve the government with a contract, etc. Just look at the cost of living in northern Virginia feeder suburbs to DC as proof. Both parties favor big government now, so no change to this trend for the foreseeable future. The discussion on education is very interesting. Parents might be best served by pushing their children to take jobs that are not outsourceable. That leaves government jobs (for security reasons) and trades (plumber, electrician, etc.). Hardly an attractive spectrum. Once things get pushed far enough that the scientific, technical, and engineering fields graduates are no longer employable & canât pay back their student loans, expect a general outcry. I donât think that this is sustainable, nor that it is good for the long term success of our country. Once we lose our technologic edge, we lose our military edge and are ultimately a 2nd rate power. Over the long run, people arenât stupid. If there are no jobs, people will not go to college and to graduate school. They wonât be able to afford it, and will just get a job wherever. It will be more like the society of the early 1900âs, where you had some very smart people running corner stores, etc⦠because they didnât have access to education. It really bodes ill for the future of the nation. I too am concerned about the possibility of demagoguery, tyranny, and despotism arising. Good German people were seduced by Hitler and his Faustian bargain. We all know how that ended. However, I am also reminded that most revolutions are started by the disenfranchised middle class â an educated, technologically savvy and motivated group who have steered the course of history since the dark ages. Many of our middle class are true patriots, suffering in silence. Those who would try to destroy the middle class might wish to consider that; as once Pandora âs Box is opened, things rarely go as planned.
The US has the best infrastructure in the world. For someone to say other wise is just plain silly and extraordinarily naive. I was in France in early 80's. You had to go to Post Office to make long distance call!!!!! You people do not understand how big and rich this country is. The economy and size of California dwarfs most countries. The corruption, graft and incompetence is all over the world. Russia, Eastern Europe, Africa, South America, Middle East, Far East just to name a few spots. In most countries the poor want to pull the "rich" down to their level. In America the poor want to become rich. That is a huge psychological difference that non-Americans do not understand and appreciate. Use Michael Dell as an example: He did not invent one damn thing. He saw a way to make a known common product better, cheaper and faster. Started in his dorm room, worked hard and made some money. What is happening now is not new. What happened to the guy who tended the horses for the Pony Exp.? This country has winners and losers. A lot of people live within their means, save money, pay off the home, vacation and have a very nice lifestyle that suits them. Most people in the world would kill just for a home like our vacation homes, LOL. The average cottage on the lake, river, or shore is bigger and better than the average Japanese home. And, our military has protected the Japanese, Koreans, Europeans, Middle East and Canadians for the last 50 years and we still have money to play golf on the moon.!!! SteveD
Steve, I don't think anyone's attacking the US of today (and if they are, it's beside the point). The concern is over the US of tomorrow. Thirty years from now, how will the "average" American live? (Note: Michael Dell isn't your average American. For every Dell that succeeds, there are many times more wannabe-Dells that fail - but those you don't hear about those.) Hard work and enterprise will be the ticket for success no matter what the prospects for middle America, be they poor or excellent, so let's just agree on that and put it aside. The question at hand is determining what those prospects are, both for the shorter term and longer term future. (I know, I know - the enterprising person doesn't care, or waste time worrying, about "conditions". At least that's what all the "success" books tell me. But we're interested in how it's going to be for the "average" American, not how it's going to be for Mr Enterprising-Take-No-Prisoners.)
Agreed. While the myth of american success has certainly brought many immigrants to its shores - 'streets paved with gold', only to have its weaker groups end up in sweatshops and tenements, or worse, there has always been that 'dream'. The problem is that when the dream becomes only that. It used to be, work hard, save your money, have a little luck, do well, give your kids an education so they can do better. Now its work hard, get into debt, load up your kids on student loans, hope for the best. Does that sound like a good plan to you? 10 years ago, it was a well know statistic that 25% of college graduates made less than an equivalent high school graduate without the college education. And that individual didn't have the crushing student loans to pay back. I wonder what the number is now? Its not like we have a lack of unskilled labor in this country (illegal americans, with regrets to that underrepresented population here on ET). At a certain point, the costs do not yield sufficent returns. The value of education is diminished. And we have a big mess. We have already diminished the value of a scientific and technical education in this country. Those people are hard to replace. And we export those brains to china, elsewhere, in the form of graduate students who take the positions that would have been offered to american students (if they had only wanted them, which they don't. Our society has embarrased most smart kids out of going into the technical fields and instead steered them into finance, business, law, and medicine.) When the middle class begins emigrating, that's the last straw. As much as I love this country, for my children's sake, I may choose a more stable situation.
Ah, but see, Michael Dell is the average guy. Go through the Nadaq 100 companies. Almost all started by "average" guys. Yes, a lot fail, but that "failure" is so much better in the US than any other place in the world. In most of the world a person can "only" dream. No chance of ever being Dell. Not even allowed to try. Examples are given of high student loans, credit card debt, big house/car payments. These are discipline problems, not economic problems. No one has promised a cushy job if you go to college!!! One has to take responsibility for your own well being and future. There are literally thousands of jobs that one can make money doing. There are plenty of state/city colleges that are very inexpensive. Just the opinions and post on this thread says a lot about the 95% failure rate of traders. There seems to be absolutely no discipline exhibited in any business plan. People are complaining about the cost to get an Engineering Degree from a well known college and then no one will pay me enough to pay off my student loans, buy a new car and a new house. Well, DUH!! LOOK FOR A CAREER THAT PAYS ENOUGH TO SATISFY YOU!!! Quit whining. SteveD