I'm an MBA student in a school with a good Finance program. I like trading. It's never easier to know if you're right or wrong, requires significant discipline and a strong mind. I've been momentum trading OEX options for my own account -but not very successfully. Luckily, I've used very limited capital for now - limiting my losses to a few $K at a time once or twice a year until I basically wipe out. I shouldn't put in more money if I'm not doing well. I generally get distracted by work and school - making it hard to focus on the market during the day. There are some other areas I need to work on: - risk management: position size (hard if I'm trading a contract that's 1/2 my account size), setting stop-losses - limiting thrashing - I need to be able to sit by and not have a position if I'm not confident in a direction Are there any MBA Internship opportunities where I can do some serious training and serious trading? I'd really like to give this a go as a career (I work in IT now) and an Internship in 2008 would be the best way I might get started.
"I'm an MBA student in a school with a good Finance program. I like trading. It's never easier to know if you're right or wrong, requires significant discipline and a strong mind." With an MBA, why if it's worth the paper it's written on would you need an internship and more schooling? Not to offend, but cut the crud, who cares if your an MBA, maybe wallstreet might, but in the real world, plenty of MBA's etc blow up. Because school isn't about finding your own way, it does not teach independant thought. It teaches you to be a good follower and believe your piece of paper will be the ticket. In my experience people with too much education rely on it too much. And most students, don't realize their education was only to tell the world then can learn, and they at this point know nothing of how the world works yet. If your applying for the wall street jobs etc, they put some credence in it. But reality is can you learn on your own? Most educated types think trading is just something you get taught and you make lots of money. That's not how it works, most fail, and many are average at best with mediocre incomes, until they realize that what any firm teaches you is just basics, and the real learning comes on your part. No education system in the world can prepare you to make money in trading. If your not making money now, the first thing you shouldn't do is say your busy with school or you don't have the time, those are cop outs. Your strategy is a bust, and way too risky. Options, though many say are safe, can be if properly used, unfortunately for most, it's too easy to get to large a position, and continually blow yourself up. Trading is not emotional, despite what most here will tell you. And it's not about discipline either. It's about having a proven strategy that works consistently enough that you have the confidence in to make the trade and stop in the first place. Your emotions are neutralized when you have confidence in your strategy, because you know that sure one in two or three might be a winner, but they will more than make up for the stops. As an example, when Kobi Bryant does a turn around jumper from outside the arch, why does he take that shot? No coach would ever teach that shot, or tell a player to try that, yet Kobe does it over and over again. Because he has practiced that strategy, and he knows with a degree of confidence that he will make it. So even after several misses, his confidence remains the same. When emotions get involved, shows you have lost control of the trade, and you now don't know or trust the reason you got in the trade in the first place, so now you fall on other types of reason, like maybe my support number was wrong, but the next big number will hold forsure!) Yeah that's it. When this happens, I suggest anayzing that trade and stop and see what might improve the trade, perhaps the trade was a correct assumption, but just didn't work, and then you didn't take your stop. I suggest with all that brain power, you read every book out there, and start analyzing strategies and reflect on your understanding of those strategies, and try to find "one" that is sound and simple enough to repeat over and over again. And I did say One strategy, nobody needs twenty strategies, one will do. The most work in trading is the constant self assesment, there is no teacher going to grade your paper, or pass you, it's up to you now, whether your with a firm, or on your own to constantly self assess your trading style, execution and knowledge base. And you mentioned profits are the sign of failure or not, this is unfortunately not the case. You may have a good strategy, yet your execution may be bad. And if in fact your strategy is bad, you should by all accounts with all that brain power realize that any Business strategy should be accounted at the end of the day or month to know if you are throwing good money after bad. That is why I personally would not hire an MBA as a trader, rather I would take the young entrprenurial type, because MBA's have been taught that the curriculum, the system of education and the pass/failure means you will be a success or not, when in reality it only means you are a follower. The education part of any training is similar to anything you can find in any book, read a dozen or two, and you will probably know more than your trainer, but can you make money? And most trainers are not good traders, they enjoy teaching, if they were good traders, why on earth would they waste their time teaching? Teaching as a rule, in my book is for those who can't! So don't count on these clowns, who probably make less than your mechanic most times. Unhinge yourself from your thinking this is something you can count on others for. There is no white knight, this is all you man.. And if you wonder why I ramble on this whole MBA thing, I am a high school drop out, and I make more money a year than all my MBA and graduate freinds put together, but the illusion that I am lucky or other in their minds remains, because in their minds how can I be making 10 times what they make a year! They just don't get it! Good luck, my intentions are not to offend, only to enlighten.
HAZARDFISH.. great post, one of the best posts on here. you state what works for you & i agree with you. , its a mattter of having a strategy & in following thru on execution. stick to the rules that most know make sense , but can not implement. contolling risk & keeping emotions in check is a priority. unfortuantely too many traders get into the market for the wrong reasons, thinking its a a way to get rich & when they blow up they wonder why. to be good at something you must put the time in to learn your craft & have a game plan that must be followed to have the best chance for long term success. no matter what, the markets are always changing & one must learn & grow with them, anyone can get lucky . but to be a profitable trader over the long term, one should treat it as a serious business. trading should be your passion & the rewards will follow for your efforts you put into it. learn then earn..
Hazardfish - I agree with what you say. A very successful businessman and friend once told me he never hires MBAs! :eek: I got a lot out of your message - especially the Kobe Bryant example and the "it's all you" bottom line. I agree 100%. I'll continue reading and sorting things out for myself - I'm not counting on anyone else that's for sure. There are a few shops that have internships - and If I'm planning to spend the summer of 2008 somewhere it may as well be somewhere I can learn something. For example, I learned that Citadel has internships. I was just wondering if someone had made a list somewhere. - Caementarius
IMO, if you have an MBA, you need to be careful about "trying your luck as a trader" at least right now. I would focus on getting an internship with a real company. Christ, from what I read MBA's are starting out at 150K. Not many prop traders making that kind of coin. And after a few years you can be making 250K. Man, I know a guy who's 41, has a master's in engineering and makes 350K plus a big bonus. My point is you can always give trading a shot between jobs, but the first job out of grad school is critical. If you go the prop route, and it doesn't work out, you may not get 150K offers. It seems the career track needs to start right out of school. Good Luck.
Do you mean a prop firm as in the ones touted here (you provide capital, they give execution, "arcades")? (Bright etc) Or do you mean prop firms where you trade the firms money, get salary plus bonus and resemble the prop desks of ibanks? (drw, wolverine etc) The first variety don't provide internships. Then again all you need for those firms is a body and capital to trade with. The second variety do provide internships but generally you need to be at a top school and then pass some pretty difficult interviews. The top prop firms are generally as hard if not harder to break into than the S&T program at BB ibanks. Interviews will generally consist of mental math (initial stages), probability/stat questions (calculating fair values of games, explaining distributions etc), brainteasers (google: quant brainteasers), sometimes basic finance (its not very important...they like training individuals themselves. sometimes knowing a lot of finance can be detrimental as well if it seems like they will have to make you unlearn a lot of wrong/useless sheah).
That's great, go for it, my opinions on the subject tend to be of the stronger in nature, though to the point. I think traders who can face the facts end up doing better in the long run. Expectations of what the industry is like tend to be misunderstood. And only end up in misery for so many, it can be hard to watch. Good luck in your endeavors, and there is alot of wise advise on these boards! Traders tend to be shoot from the hip types.
Mahras2 - I'm going to prepare myself for some difficult interviews with top firms - even if they are a long shot it probably makes sense to keep my options open. I'm not 100% sure they are the best places to learn - I'm still researching what would be best for me. I'd like to test a few systems on my own in the meantime. - Caementarius