Shoe: >I have provided significant support. I have shown many >verses in New and Old Testament that show that the non >believer is destroyed. Shoe, this really is becoming a laugh riot. For the sake of discussion can we stipulate that I BELIEVE the non-believer is destroyed? I believe that I can fairly ask for this stipulation as I have NEVER stated anything on this thread (or any other for that matter) that would imply that I believe the non-believer is NOT destroyed? I will continue on responding to this post ONLY if I can get this stipulation from you which will then mean that any implication that I believe otherwise will be OFF LIMITS!!!!!!!! So, stipulate? JB
Sorry shoe, page numbers don't match from computer to computer. Please direct me to Damir's "biblical support". JB
You're missing the point of why I'm posting those verses about the destruction of the non-believer. I am NOT posting those cuzz I think you think the opposite. Here's why I am posting them: I am showing clearly that the bible says that the non-believer is destroyed by the hell fire. If this is so, then there is NO reason to think that the fire is torturous. Why? Because the purpose of the fire is NOT torture but execution or extermination. So I'm not trying to ram that down your throat - I'm simply pointing out that you don't even have a reason to believe in a torturing fire if you accept the idea that non-believers are taken out of existence.
Shoe: >Thank you for saying that - now you understand why I >emphasized the "carbon based" fire issue earlier in the >thread. Uhhh...no I DON'T understand your fascination with the "carbon based" issue so don't tell me I DO understand. I don't care if the heat is carbon based, chemically produced, or deity produced. WFT does carbon based have to do with *anything* we are discussing. >You are assuming, and this is a HUGE assumption, that >the fire of hell is just like fire on this earth. And there is >no reason to assume that. No, I AM ASSUMING NO SUCH THING. It could be very different from fire on this earth...it could be require no fuel, it could be impervious to cooling from water, it could be extinguished by gasoline for all I know...AND I DON'T CARE. I am ONLY assuming that the biblical fiery hell is torturous BECAUSE the bible says it TORTUROUS! Fire on earth is painful. Biblical fire is painful (according to the bible) that is the ONLY comparison I have made. JESUS!! (so to speak). JB
As you know, I always say let scripture interpret scripture. Look in this passage below: "...He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matt 3:12) Jesus clearly states that the chaff/tares/weeds are burned up. One clearly gets the imagery of a fire that consumes what is placed in it. Here's another one: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned" (John 15:6) Now, again, I'm not posting cuzz I think you are arguing against the idea that the non-believers are destroyed. I am just asking you to look at these verses and realize that the hell fire is simply to destroy "the tares". It's that simple. There is no torture. There is no excruciating pain. It's extermination.
What you are doing is asking me not to post verses that support my position, so my answer is no. That's unfairly disarming me.
What if I told you that you can't post anything that uses the word "fire" because I believe that hell is a fire and you keep saying that I don't believe that hell is a fire?