marriage and government

tikipoki · Jan 2, 2004

Quote from aphexcoil:

Gordon,

Ok so you don't believe in god. Great. You don't believe in religion -- wonderful. Now you are saying that marriage is wrong. Since marriage is a direct result of natural forces within the universe constructing specific cultures and societies, you are arguing that social evolution made a mistake and the world would be better without them.

Why not just skip to step Z and call yourself god? You're already the best trader and now you know more about how the universe should work than evolution. Get some followers and get a nice compound somewhere in Texas.

Perhaps there will be a religion started one day with you as their choosen one?
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Well you are almost very right on here alphie, marriage indeed might be a direct result of natural forces constructing specific societies, but even though those FORCES are universal, the RULES are not. Remember that nature had people for example in america morph into a society where the urges exist to settle (I question this seeing how many people cheat, but lets just assume monogamy for the sake of argument), in Saudi-Arabia it is perfectly normal to, as Gekko introduced and fights for, have multiple wives. In other countries its different again etc. etc. etc.

Same NATURAL FORCES, different 'people made up rules'...

I'd say the conclusion is that ALL laws and morals are merely geographical and you happen to have to deal with them INCIDENTALLY. Isnt it absolutely hilarious that people in NYC almost called the FBI when I slapped a chick, while you can stone your wife (--> OR ANY WOMAN you claim was 'infidel' to you!!) to death on your own call in some Arab countries. Funny how we all eat mcdonalds with (well they claim to!) beef in the burgers, millions a day, while the cow is holy in india and people STOP TRAFFIC if a cow is sleeping on the road! Funny how thai people like to eat dogs and all americans go "EEEWW YOU CANNOT DO THAT IT IS A DOGGY DOGGY ITS CUTE SWEET", funny how a lot of people in western countries hug their dogs, shit man! I even know chicks that let their dogs sleep on their beds! In Suriname dogs are considered so filthy they arent even allowed to be in the house.. Remember a video of a kitten being eaten on the internet? All america was crying and boohooing, its *normal* for some cultures to do that.

All incidental morals and standards.. wanna know something even more fun? Those arent even BORN IN, those are all learnt from society. I remember going to spain (for work!!) and irritating myself how lazy people seemed to be sometimes. One month later a friend visited me and was just as irritated how lazy _I_ had become (ofcourse, I felt like he was messed up and should relax! haha)

purely geographical & random, those are the morals and ethics we all want to fight and die for, hooray for consciousness!

Tiki

ShoeshineBoy · Jan 2, 2004

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

oooooohhhh i called jesus an idiot!! how dare i!! lmao i gotta laugh at you, shoeshine. i call jesus an idiot and it ruins your night. ahaha

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I'm gonna submit your name for Humanist of the Year 2003.

Turok · Jan 2, 2004

>Once you kill god, you kill purpose. There is no
>purpose without god

I'll accept that this is true for you. It is not true for me in any way. I can have no better purpose than to be a true and kind friend to my fellow man.

>In the eyes of an atheist, I don't quite
>understand why they place any significance
>in life.

Your above position does much to prevent you from that understanding.

JB

ShoeshineBoy · Jan 2, 2004

Quote from tikipoki:

Well you are almost very right on here alphie, marriage indeed might be a direct result of natural forces constructing specific societies, but even though those FORCES are universal, the RULES are not. Remember that nature had people for example in america morph into a society where the urges exist to settle (I question this seeing how many people cheat, but lets just assume monogamy for the sake of argument), in Saudi-Arabia it is perfectly normal to, as Gekko introduced and fights for, have multiple wives. In other countries its different again etc. etc. etc.

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Then here's the next question: is it okay for a community or nation to say, "Okay, Saudis have multiple wives. But we don't want that. If you want multiple wives, go over there. Here's your passport."? What's wrong with a nation/culture/community setting its own standards?

ShoeshineBoy · Jan 2, 2004

Here's another question for all the athiests: Nevada is the only state with prostitution. Should Arizona or Utah have the right to say, "We don't want that here. If you want prostition, go to NV!" If you were Senate and House, would you pass a federal law that mandated the allowance of prostition in all states?

Gordon Gekko · Jan 2, 2004

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Then here's the next question: is it okay for a community or nation to say, "Okay, Saudis have multiple wives. But we don't want that. If you want multiple wives, go over there. Here's your passport."? What's wrong with a nation/culture/community setting its own standards?
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why don't you just mind your own business and worry about your own relationships?

if a man wants 3 wives, he's harming nobody, the women are willing, etc...why would you have a fit over it?

oh wait, i know why.....because you've been brainwashed and your bs morals, made up by some guy thousands of years ago, say that's wrong.

tikipoki · Jan 2, 2004

Quote from ARogueTrader:

Even in the animal kingdom it is seen nearly universally seen that:

-Animals kill for self preservation and survival only.
-Animals care for their young.
-Animals of the same class in the most evolved species have societies that protect and care for each other.

*Killing for selfpreservation and survival only? Have you ever seen a kitten chase a mouse? or a bird? Wanna know how many times they really eat them? (hint: they almost never do unless I wont feed em their Me-ow mix for a month) They do kill the animals, though! It can just be nature to chase, kill and ravage. Remember that nature needs as much destruction as it needs creation.

* Care for their young ok... like the turtles that leave their eggs on the beach and accept all turtles in the group that MAKE IT OFF THE BEACH, c'mon man! Ever seen a bird kick its youngs outta the nest? half of em cant fly yet (free food for groundanimals!), only animals that care for their young are animals that live in herds, and that is not because they are their yongs, but because they are part of the herd. Generally, youngs are kicked out when are able to take care of their own (human would be at .. well, 8 or 9?), but more then less BEFORE the youngs could take care of their own.

* Societies that care for eachother yes, but multiple societies that slaughter eachother, why? Arent we talking about the same animals? Think about that.

On the basis of the work done by anthropologists in the study of the societies of primates, there is clearly a sense of what is considered right and wrong behavior for the group members.

Yeah, along 1 group, but not along 1 specie! From which YOU can conclude that the rules, etics and morals are independant from species and set in a groupsetting in a random (what is the most convenient for this little group at this moment) way.

So we can conclude that instinctively humans are inclined to self preservation, caring for their young, and social grouping that demonstrate care for each other, i.e. promotion of the survival of the members of the group.

Clearly, there is a moral compass. It points in the direction of survival and happiness for the individual and the members of the family (group).

Haha! What is happiness? Fullfilling of emotional needs is happiness, and our emotions are there to steer us to survival *originally*, its too bad that people can be socially conditioned to find *anything* fulfilling.. shiit.

How that happiness and survival is ultimately achieved is the issue of debate.

survival (killing all that might hurt you, or fleeing from it) & fucking

Even the Framers accepted this to be true:

"WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

If all are created equal, then why are some stong, intelligent and rich and others ugly, stupid and poor? thats not equal to me.

So, there is an innate sense of what is right morally, i.e. perpetuation of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness.

Perpetuation of life and fucking are not right morally, they are urges. Liberty is an asset to survival and pursuit of happiness is either 1) fulfillment of conditioned needs (drinking coke) 2) fulfillment of basic needs (fucking and staying alive)

its not hard, only if you are very narcissic and vain

Tiki
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ShoeshineBoy · Jan 2, 2004

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

why don't you just mind your own business and worry about your own relationships?

if a man wants 3 wives, he's harming nobody, the women are willing, etc...why would you have a fit over it?

oh wait, i know why.....because you've been brainwashed and your bs morals, made up by some guy thousands of years ago, say that's wrong.
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You didn't answer my question: is it okay for a state to decide on its own morality? I take it your answer is "no"? You would force that state to allow "anything goes between consenting adults"?

Gordon Gekko · Jan 2, 2004

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Here's another question for all the athiests: Nevada is the only state with prostitution. Should Arizona or Utah have the right to say, "We don't want that here. If you want prostition, go to NV!" If you were Senate and House, would you pass a federal law that mandated the allowance of prostition in all states?
More...

i can pay a woman to stroke my arm, but if i pay her to stroke my penis, it's illegal.

WHAT A JOKE.

can we get rid of these inane laws already...........

Turok · Jan 2, 2004

>What's wrong with a nation/culture/community
>setting its own standards?

Nothing in my book.

Generically I believe communities should and should be able to set certain standards. I also believe that a constitution is a good idea and that those standards should be consistant with such a document.

JB