I guess by your definition it is manipulation---however to me you just described trading. People do whatever they have to do to move their positions through the market. Now when a firm pumps a stock in the news and then sits on the offer all morning--- I would call that dishonest--- but since I still have the choice to short that stock the market was not manipulated.
Ever hear of the Hold Brothers and Silver? It was done 20 year before in gold..... If they pushed it higher and higher than started to short it. WHAT IF OTHERS CAME IN THAN? SHORTs started to cover , mutual funds came in soon we are 800 points higher and the manipulators are wiped out. Nobody is larger than the market. When you begin to think that you control the market it finally takes control of you. Billions go off in the S&P pit not $200 million. Robert
great if somebody is trying to prevent a price move They don't have unlimited funds........eventually they will wear out the things will return to normal If somebody is causing a price move.......they don't have unlimited funds and eventually things will return to normal. I sure hope more guys think they can manipulate markets in the coming years. I like taking their money. Here is a belief...........The market's are manipulated and it is out of my control there is nothing I can do about it. This puts a person in the victim mode. They are helpless to act. Another belief which I find much more useful for the world I operate in is that the market's are a market. A balance between buyers and sellers. If things get out of wack eventually they will get back in line with time. It is my job as a trader to find things out of line and bring them back to fair value. Robert
I am not so worried about gross price manipulation. Gross price manipulation is very risky because it depends on the initial scarcity of counterparties to get the price moving in the right direction. Then the scheme depends on a later abundance of counterparties to absorb the unloading by the manipulators. If a manipulator tried to buy heavily and the price does not budge, they are screwed. If the manipulator tries to unload heavily and the price plummets, they are screwed. In fact, I'd bet that a skilled trader could learn to recognize the signs of manipulation and reap more profits at less risk than the manipulators themselves get. A shrewd trader could either ride the induced price movement or short the manipulation at the top. Unlike the manipulator, the trader has the luxury of sitting on the sidelines to see if the manipulation might work before risking anything. Some other types of manipulation, that are more troublesome, include: <t>*<t> selectively busted trades <t>*<t> frontrunning without price improvement <t>*<t> specialists ignoring orders to fill profitable trades from their own inventory Its all one big poker game, isn't it? Happy trading, Traden4Alpha
Saying that manipulation doesn't last is of course true, but it doesn't matter. Triple Witching is a perfect example, a manipulator only needs to control the price for one day and millions can be made. If they make 2 million on the options and lose 1 million on the stock, that is a great deal.
Interesting! But is there NO counterstrategy or means by which other traders can exploit the attempted manipulation on triple witching day???? That, to me, defines the difference between ordinary market dynamics and nefarious manipulation. If there is a foreseeable, detectable, tradable mechanism for profiting from the actions of a manipulator, then its just part of the poker game. If the manipulator is exploiting a weakness in the regulations or some favorable asymmetry in their position in the market, then it is evil.
hehe the "Hold" Brothers... i think tharpy's got Prop firms on the brain! (Hunt bros tried the silver corner..)
Actually I think the moral of the Hunt Bros. escapades in Silver is don't piss off the people who run the casino, or they will change the rules on you and make sure you lose it all back. Some things never change.