TM-Direct: Please, all I did was call you a bitch â which you are. I never involved any of your family members you loser. And believe me thereâs plenty I can say about your wife, daughter, etc â but Iâd never go there cause Iâm not a prick like you. I like to fight, argue, and debate man-to-man â thereâs no need to involve others (especially women and children). Your example in this thread serves as proof that most of you so-called âreligiousâ people are a bunch of hypocrites - which totally validates the point that weeble was making.
There you go again calling names....if im wrong say it but there is no need for you to just start flaiming me in caps..so if you are going to call me names like bitch, im going to respond in kind X 3...sorry that's just my nature, do you understand you product of incest?? or is the gene pool so close together that you can't see out of you disfigured face?? don't worry though, i think there is a site for cyclops trading have a great weekend and if you want to apologize and move on with no hard feelings, fine, otherwise i shall devote my self to your torture
damir you stumped me. Why would a christian take offense to Christo Judiac. In Genesis Elohim is plural. Some say the trinity is revealed in this plural. Let us make man in our image. This I believe is also from genesis. Who is the our. I also refer you to Isaiah 9:5 and for identification of the messiah a point you to Isaiah 53. For background of what jews were thinking prior to 1000 ad (when a rabbi changed the interperatation of Isaiah from a messiah to Isreal) I refer you to the Jews for Jesus website where they give lots of quotes from early rabbis and there teachings on the expected messiah. The jews for jesus website does a pretty god job of showing both sides of the debate Here is some of the the side I prefer. This came from their website VERSES TOPICS Genesis 3:15 Messiah will defeat Satan Deuteronomy 18:15-18 God will raise up a prophet Isaiah 7:14 Messiah to be born of a virgin Isaiah 9:5 Messiah is God Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Suffering servant - Perfect atonement for sins Jeremiah 31:31-34 Messiah brings a new covenant Micah 5:1 Messiah to be born in Bethlehem Zechariah 9:9 Messiah will come lowly - riding on a donkey Zechariah 12:10 Messiah will be pierced and Jerusalem will mourn Psalm 22 Messiah will suffer Daniel 9:24-27 Messiah will come at appointed time peace and by the way having been to temple and learned a lot about your testament I see marked similarities between many jewish and catholic ceremonies and traditions. After all the most important reason to be catholic communion is recreation of a passover meal with the blood of a Lamb whose blood covers us form death. When Catholics make the sign of the cross is syboblic of the blood being put on the lentil and the two sides fo the door. Almost everything Christian really comes from Jewish roots.
No , it's only ok for me because i' m bigger, stronger and have no qualms bending you or one of your loved ones over and showing you what happens when you F*ck with a Sicilian from Bensonhurst....this aint over little man...I know everybody and every firm...ask anyone.
Umm... mostly incorrect, although this is a common assumption. Most every Christian custom comes from European roots. There isn't a single rite or symbol in Catholicism you can't trace directly to an indigenous European religion that Christianity had to absorb in order to gain political momentum. Most of those customs - right down to communion - preexisted Christianity by at least a couple of thousand years. Even the crucifix in its commonly regarded manifestation is quite contrived from the elemental cross (Romans crucified people on stakes - no crosses). I see exactly where you're coming from. I like dogs a lot but my wife doesn't, so we don't have one right now. We need a bigger place before I get one anyway, but I'm working on her without her knowing it . The mentality and conduct of dogs is pretty much its own study though, and much of what works with them won't apply to other animals. I implictly trust their judgement however. If a dog outright doesn't like somebody then I pay attention, because they usually have a damn good reason for it. About the only animal I ever had a real problem with was a pig some friends of mine had. This was one of those miniature Vietnamese pigs, except they screwed up and raised it on commercial, hormone-laden pig feed and grew into 250lbs of beast. That thing would chase me down full blast and you bet I was going to move, and she knew it. Used to piss me off to no end. Entropy and TM: Feel free to resume your discussion.
two things here is the best link I have ever seen on the concept of the trinity existing in the Jewish bible. http://www.jewsforjesus.org/library/issues/01-08/jewish.htm Here O Isreal the Lord God is One. (one = Echad) equals a compound unity. Used when people get married or when two sticks are put together. I would love to see what Jewish scholars have to say on the matter links will be read. Two- welo give me cites. To claim communion didn't come from Jewish roots is just silly. If you could prove that too me I would seriously consider changing my religion. Really, it would cause me to adjust my worldview and that new view might not include a belief in the divinity of Jesus. I have read lots of books and websites talking about the adoption of pagan beliefs. Some of these claims are junk and some may have validity. I would like to see a cite to that thing about the cross. I would like to see the arguments about communion. So give me cites. I will read them. But I have will have a ton for you because the whole reason I am not protestant is due to an indepth study of the communion concept. If you want to make a new thread I will go there. But my communion beliefs are straight from the bible not pagan rituals.
Having to backtrack into your post slightly... Oh... in reviewing this thread I doubt we're in any danger of derailing the topic more than it already has been. Let's just stay here . So long as you are using the Bible as a cross-reference basis rather than a definitive source I see no harm in this. A lot depends on what exact Bible you're using though. Sadly, much historical relevance was stripped from the KJV during translation so it takes a lot of digging sometimes to figure out what they eradicated in the interest of ... whatever point they were interested in putting across at the time. The least corrupt English translation is probably Young's Literal Translation (YLT - 1898), which is a little hard to read due to the Old English spellings and stuff, but quite informative once you start bouncing it off other versions. Oh, and if you don't have a Dake Bible I'd strongly consider picking one up. The scholarship portrayed by Dake's lifetime of notes is well beyond impressive, and points toward a lot of other sources you would otherwise miss. (If you're interested, this site has a few different downloadable translations and a decent software kit to browse and notate them with. When my Mom - who's quite a Bible scholar in her own right - visited last month I built her a computer and helped her download and install a bunch of stuff from there.) First off, let me be abundantly clear that your religious beliefs are your own business. It's not that I don't care or am uninterested. I'm simply not out to convert anybody to anything, or even vaguely interested in helping someone else do the same, and frankly, feel the world would be a more pleasing place if a lot more people adopted a similar standpoint. This said, let's move on. Re: Communion. Point blank, nobody can be assigned credit for communion. Every religion from the dawn of time has had some rite designed to interact their deity that involves food and drink, and Judaism didn't exactly invent either of these. Realizing the above, as you more extensively explore the various theologies you start finding all kinds of spontaneous parallels; f.ex. most religions have some rite involving water that amounts to baptism; most religions have a concept that involves a defied trinity; most religions have succumbed at some point to human sacrifice; most religions have the equivalent of a messiah lurking somewhere etc. The list rapidly becomes quite extensive, and the curious thing is that, with the exceptions of Christianity and Islam (both of which are relatively young religions and are most easily tracked), in most cases it is ultimately impossible to declare any given feature of a particular religion as the result of another religious custom. The same themes occur in cultures on opposite sides of the world even though there is no evidence of contact between those cultures (native Americans and Australian aborigines f.ex.). Re: Relevant websites. I have too much to do at the moment to track any down, so you're obviously better qualified in this arena. Most of what I can discuss on the matter can still only be found in academic libraries - usually by arduous backtrack research involving actually reading bibliographies. If I run across any sites I feel are pertinent to the discussion I'll be sure to let you know. Like you say though, most of them are still crap. Re: Cross. Although my wife is a mortgage banker she has a Masters in philology from the U. of Minnesota (25yrs ago), and her thesis explored this topic in remarkable detail. Her research was quite beyond impeccable, and rest assured, she pissed a lot of people off when she presented it. C'est la vie. Suffice it to say that once you actually track down the actual translation of "crucifix" it literally means "torture stake". Oh, and btw: The Romans actually did crucify people by driving spikes directly through the hands - not behind the carpals between the ulna and radius as the recent popular theory contends. That's all I have time for now. Best of luck.
welo - I thought you were going to go over the old sun god disc on his head everlasting life pagan guy--- consequently Catholics made up transubstantiation argument. My counter was quite simply going to be versus in the bible support my understanding of communion. If your point that the jewish bible and the jewish religion are really just like all the others well then that is a different argument altogether and one that I have only come across occasionally. So if my statement was christianity had jewish roots and your statement was that Jewish roots are just like all the other roots well okay that argument is going to be very hard to pin down. And it may be true from a some perspectives. If you were to believe in evil you would expect that evil of to create disinformation. Just like what astrology has done to skies. So yes there may be a lot of similar myths and stories. I happen to think most inquiring minds should try to figure out if any of these God stories are true. And yes there is a bunch of schlarship about crosses and stakes. But I do believe I read about the finding of evidence of roman crosses in digs in the last five years or so. Research on this area should be easy because it comes up a lot.
Hmm. About the the best I can explain this is that theology as a hobby sure leads a person along some interesting philosophical avenues, and the further you proceed, the more hazy the lines become. The curious thing about religion-oriented studies is that - for reasons I have yet to fully define - they tend to inspire disregard for a person's natural associative compulsion. Normally when encountering information or situations beyond our experience the first place our mind goes is toward corresponding this data to something within our experience or knowledge we can psychologically assign a metaphor to, thereby causing it to make sense to us. Religious association appears to inspire exactly the opposite (we remain on the lookout for what appears to conflict with an already adopted belief, then use it to reinforce our existing paradigm). For present I have chalked this up to simple dogma, since another common thread throughout religions is that anyone who doesn't agree with your religious beliefs is wrong. I remain suspicious of nutshell theories however, so the jury's still out on this one . Where Judaism appears to have a clear historical advantage is in being the most well-documented ancient religion (although this precept becomes questionable once you hit all the ancient Chinese and Zoroastrian stuff, but whatever), so for research purposes this seems the most likely place to start looking for Christian origins. The flip-side is that people tend to assume the Bible is the most concise and accurate extant source of Jewish history, law, and customs when this is far from the case. The amount of information that didn't make it into the Bible is mind-boggling (not to mention the reasons why most of this didn't make it in), but it's out there if you're willing to look. One of these days I'm going to read the complete Torah. Been meaning to do that for years. At the moment though I'm working my way through the unabridged translation of Das Kapital, so it must wait . For those interested in better exploring Jesus and his surrounding influences (I still recall when I was around 7 or 8 and asked Mom why 30 years of Jesus' life was curiously missing from the Bible - something she was clearly unable to answer), a couple of quite decent references are The Lost Books Of The Bible, and The Complete Jesus (this one draws heavily from the aforementioned work, and my Mom accused me of trying to screw her up with when I gave it to her a few years ago ) As to this statement: Please re-read what I've posted so far then tell me if you are able to see the paradox in this, and we'll return to it later if need be (and you're truly interested in discussing it). My wife and I both keep fairly up to date on the latest archaeological findings (f.ex. we maintained a subscription to Archeology Magazine for years) and I have yet to run across anything that conclusively refutes her original findings. If you can point me to any references though (preferably printed ones) I'm sure listening, and I can assure you she'd be most interested and grateful.