Manipulator defined?

Discussion in 'Trading' started by qdz2, Feb 14, 2003.

  1. there is one day per month when manipulation is rampant....options expiration day. I never trade on options expiration day for that reason. Triple witching days are also bad, and now that we have SSF's there may be quadruple witching.
    #31     Feb 17, 2003
  2. Tide31


    I think thats a strong word for market makers. I always viewed manilpualtors as the guys at First Jersey or Oakmont who raided Granny's savings with Penny Stock offerings. Options MM's create liquidity for all of us to use leverage as retail investors. If they try to 'peg' a close on expiration day by forcing it down to the strike - how does that consitute the 'M' word? The markets don't go up and down for any other reason then for supply and demand. If there is increased supply because we were all selling calls for 2 months and they were forced to buy them, DON'T complain when they have to clear out their books at expiration.
    A stock MM that see's 10 shorts leaning on a stock and clears them all out, hence running the stock forcing them to cover, is NOT a manipulator, he's a great trader! At a site titled 'Elite Trader' we should be admiring these sorts of talent not complaining that they are a form of 'manipulation'. Don't get me wrong, I've seen my share of bad market making and am a huge proponent of all-electronic markets. But, this will not ever do away with market makers. They just won't have control of the quotes we see on the screen.
    #32     Feb 17, 2003
  3. qdz2


    A good try to defend the market makers. remember there are so many different kinds of manipulators. MM is probably just one kind of them. And every manipulator had logical purposes... In your example, they took the orders out because they had confidence, intension, and ability to get the price moved to force outsiders to cover... If you don't like the word manipulator for market makers, how about wo-manipulator, kidding...

    Again, appreciated your opinions. I'd like to listen to them.


    #33     Feb 17, 2003
  4. it is unbelievable to me that it is you guys that i trade against everyday...its amazing i havent made even more money and put you all out of business already...i assume there are many intelligent traders out there such as myself that are smart enough to keep their mouths shut and let you suckers talk about "manipulation" you are using phrases like there are people actually TRYING TO CONTROL MARKETS AND STOCKS...ive got news for ya if there are manipulators(which i do not agree with u on) and they are attempting to bring stocks or markets to where they should not be THEN THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STAY THERE FOR LONG WHEN THE MANIPULATOR IS FINISHED WITH WILL THEN GIVE YOU HUUUGE OPPORTUNITY IF YOU GUYS ARE SO SMART AS TO SPOT THESE MANIPULATIONS...nobody can truly control a market so get over it...if you cant spot the sucker...then your it!!
    #34     Feb 17, 2003
  5. Wow, so anyone who questions "manipulation" is likely a "confident manipulator." Funny accusations. I take it man also never really landed on the moon, and the CIA created AIDS to kill Communists (or Africans, some say).
    #35     Feb 17, 2003
  6. qdz2


    Larry, manipulators are like potatos. There are small ones and large ones. There are bake potatos, sweet potatos, you know, white, red, or brown skin. No one says manipulators had or will controlled the market ultimately successfully. But whenever those queen-size in them make huge effort, I assure you and I will be affected by it.


    #36     Feb 17, 2003
  7. :D

    <IMG SRC=>

    #37     Feb 17, 2003
  8. stevebec


    I think we're all asking/answering the wrong questions here. Rather than asking whether manipulators exist (by the definition of "someone who, at least temporarily, attempts to move a market", I would say they do) and if they are bad (my opinion is that they are neither good or bad, they just are), we should be discussing how to anticipate situations that may attract manipulators and how to profit from it.
    #38     Feb 17, 2003
  9. hey Larry, "read reminiscences of a stock operator", its a classic.

    Sometimes when a market seems screwy it is because it is reflecting the buying or selling of the biggest player in that market on a given day. Sometimes that is intentional, especially around options expiration for large caps, and far more often for thinly traded small caps.
    #39     Feb 17, 2003
  10. Sure since the biggest player should THE manipulators : only if you have enough money can you take the risk of manipulation :D

    I have even a proof of that for the 1999 european Bonds market : officials were forced to reveal in front of a judge that they made fake transactions on futures market ( In fact it was a hasard that the judge discoverd it since he was making an inquiry on another subject when he discovered a paper at COB - equivalent of SEC in France - mentioning massive fictive transactions on matif and COB kept it secret until discovered inadvertently by the judge :D). They pretexted to have done it because Germany and Spain have done it (competition pretext as usual) . I will post a french financial newspaper cover one day (I have to find where I stored it first). Since all markets are correlated in the world and since bonds market through interest rates impacts currency and stock market it is the proof that the buble was partly (if not totally) orchestrated by the market officials themselves perhaps with the consent or incitations of governments.

    #40     Feb 17, 2003