Manipulator defined?

Discussion in 'Trading' started by qdz2, Feb 14, 2003.

  1. qdz2

    qdz2

    How do you define manipulator? Do you think there is surely a different kind of participants in the markets different from many of us, whom I call them manipulators. Their goal is different from traders or investors who follows the market. They move the market the way they intended. Most of these manipulators don't care about close open positions on daily basis. They have longer term outlook. For example, if you and I ride the move today and want to close or even the positions at close before a long weekend, how do you explain there was no pull-back due to increasing supply? Depends on the liquidity, the manipulators control today's close more or less as planned. Note, stock manipulators usually come out after the bond market closes at 3pm EST or when the liquidity/volume are low. There is usually less resistance, perhaps due to lack of some arbitrators, and easier to control. Of course, their are as many as a score types of manipulators in the market. They have different habits, time frame, and activity patterns. Let's define them and put them on the watch list.


    :p
     
  2. Why does anyone buy or sell in this market? To subsequently sell it higher or buy it back lower from the "greater fool". The "manipulator's" intentions aren't any more sinister than anyone else's. If I know there are lots of stops above price X, and I buy at market just to trigger those stops and sell out to them to profit, would you think of me as a manipulator? The goal of all market participants is to make profits; if the manner in which they do it seems somewhat artificial or devious, welcome to wall street :)

    And be careful with flippantly calling this move or that "manipulation" simply because you don't believe the move is "right." Who knows, next week those who bought in the last hour may prove to be geniuses. . .

    In any case, I thank god daily for the "manipulators". They tend to provide excellent entry points :)
     
  3. qdz2

    qdz2

    Please don't be so defensive. When I use the world manipulator and do not necessity mean to complain or hate them comparing to when I use the phrase: special interest groups. You are right. I am also grateful to them many times whenever I am with the winnders among them.

     
  4. Not being defensive at all, just curious why you want to single out "manipulation" from any other kind of market movement.
     
  5. qdz2

    qdz2

    Because manipulators are stronger hands. They have good appetite and big stomachs for both rewards and risks. Identifying 'em, knowing their intention, and taking advantage of them are keys to succeed. That's why I single them out all the time, right or wrong.

    :p

     
  6. bone

    bone ET Sponsor

    I think you'll find that your trading will improve when you accept the market for what it is, and choose instead to take responsibility for your own actions.

    Thin markets without conviction are to be avoided. They gravitate from one squeeze to the next.

    Learn the lessons that you've paid for (as I have as well), and move on.

    You don't have to be in the market all of the time. And that is a choice you alone control.

    Pick and choose your places wisely. It is the only thing that matters in this business.
     
  7. qdz2

    qdz2

    Thanks for your lesson.

    :p

     
  8. bone

    bone ET Sponsor

    I promise that I paid for that lesson in spades. I could bid or offer 250 E-minis in a thin market to get 15 and then flip them... but I choose not to. I don't intentionally inflict pain. Call me sporting. If you want trade these markets... I would suggest a passive, high probability approach like placing orders very wide in the market. If you get one every six months it would be good. And it will keep you detached, yet somehow 'involved'.
     
  9. Curious, why do you say manipulators are stronger hands? Wouldn't you think that manipulators would be quickest to dump their positions once any hint of resistance was met from "real" sellers/buyers? Assuming you could even identify "manipulative" buying or selling, aren't you looking to fade their moves, in anticipation that the market should snap back from their temporary games?
     
  10. qdz2

    qdz2

    apparently, you and i have different view on various market participates. To me, those you mentioned (including who you refereed to as "real buyers") are both manipulators, but just different kinds and sizes. My standard of justification is that their execution strategies move the market to a extension regardless if they do it intentionally or unintentionally.

    Oh, I should not just say maniuplators are strong hands. I meant those big especially queen-size manipulators.

    :p


     
    #10     Feb 14, 2003