Lou Dobbs - Moneyline - and Illegal Immigration.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by SouthAmerica, Mar 29, 2006.

  1. .

    March 29, 2006

    SouthAmerica: Lou Dobbs the news anchor of “Moneyline” on CNN – has been putting the spotlight on the problem of illegal immigration in the United States.

    I wrote the enclosed article in early 2000, and the article was the cover story on the “The Brasilians” newspaper in April 2000. Later the article was also published on Brazzil Magazine.

    My article mention both legal and illegal immigration – and in the case of the Africans – forced immigration into the New World: including Brazil and the United States.

    Most people does not remember – but when Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to the illegal immigrants in 1986 – the politicians thought that they were giving amnesty for about 6 million people – but after the dust settled and these new immigrants brought their families to the US – the final count of that amnesty was over 10 million people.

    The debate of the immigration issue in general – including legal and illegal immigration - it is a very complex subject with many ramifications – but when we see the politicians talk about this subject on television they have a very simplistic way of thinking and trying to resolve that problem.


    Brazzil Magazine – July 1, 2000


    Brazil started the century with 17 million people and ended it with an estimated total population of 170 million people. When the population of a country grows ten fold during a period of 100 years, that country is asking for social trouble, as is happening in Brazil.
    Written by Ricardo C. Amaral

    On April 22, 1500 Brazil was discovered by a Portuguese explorer named Pedro Álvares Cabral, and Brazil became a colony of Portugal.

    "In other parts of the world colonies were used as trading posts to facilitate the commerce and trade of products between the mother country and that particular region. Since Brazil did not have products for trade with Europe, it was necessary to develop agricultural production for the benefit of European commerce. Brazil came into being as a producer of goods for international trade with the plantation system (fazenda) as the basis for its economy to produce sugar and other agricultural commodities for trade with Europe."

    To develop this agricultural system they started using slave labor; first they tried to use the slave labor of the native Brazilian Indians. This did not work well for the Portuguese. Later they started bringing black slaves from Africa with a somewhat better result.

    The Brazilian economy was built and developed using slave labor. Slavery was abolished in Brazil only in 1888. This is a period in Brazilian history that we should be ashamed of. That is, if we analyze it from a humanistic point of view.

    "Before the importation of African slaves, the main suppliers of Indian slaves were the Paulistas—the people from the Captaincy of São Paulo. The Paulistas were a new people; a mixture of Portuguese and Native Brazilian Indian. The Paulistas were a major force in the development of the bandeiras movement. This group of people called the bandeirantes were to be the chief pioneering element in Brazil. They did more than any other group to push the line of demarcation westward until Brazil included half of the South American Continent." 1 (In 1494 Portugal and Spain had agreed to a line of demarcation by the Treaty of Tordesillas.)

    Brazilian Population Growth

    The population in Brazil grew as follows:


    1500 - 0
    1600 - 100,000
    1700 - 300,000
    1800 - 3,250,000
    1900 - 17,000,000
    2000 - 170,000,000

    "Brazil started the century in 1900 with a total population of 17 million people. Brazil ended the century with an estimated total population of 170 million people. When the population of a country grows ten fold during a period of 100 years, that country is asking for social trouble, as is happening in Brazil. It does not matter which system a country has: capitalism, communism, or socialism; this magnitude of population growth is a prescription for disaster.

    "Today some people wonder why there is so much crime in Brazil and why its civil system is breaking down. People look for simplistic answers to the problems. They consider drugs, or something else, as the reason for the breakdown. However, the obvious reason (population explosion) is never understood as being the cause of the problems.

    "In the United States, Americans built an economic system in which the economy has to grow, grow and grow, and can't be allowed to stagnate.

    Growth, growth, and more growth is the mindset of Americans. The United States had only five million people around 1800, when its Constitution and Bill of Rights were drafted and put into effect. The United States population had increased to 76 million people by 1900, but they had new lands, which they had bought or conquered since 1800. The United States could still afford to continue growing at that point in its history."

    Today there are many studies estimating the optimum population the United States can support based on its resources, wealth, location, environmental considerations and type of economic structure. "Among these studies is one by David and Marcia Pimentel, professors at Cornell University. They suggest the United States should aim at a population of less than 100 million people. University of Maryland professor Robert Costanza reaches a more pessimistic estimate of 85 million people."

    Based on the various studies it seems that up to 150 million people can be an acceptable limit of population for the United States. Above this number Americans are looking for trouble.

    The United States reached the 151 million people mark in 1950; by 1970 the US had increased its population to over 200 million people. The country again increased its population to an estimated 275 million people by the year 2000.

    Is it really surprising that the prison population started exploding in the United States since 1970, after the optimum population for this country of 150 million continued growing in numbers?

    With the accelerated advances in technology and automation that we have today in the United States, the optimum population for the United States probably should be reduced to an even lower amount of people. Maybe the country should not have a population larger than 120 million people.

    Most people don't understand and don't give much thought to the power of geometric progression (exponential growth) and its effect on population growth. For example, to show the power of exponential growth, in the 1980's more than 10 million legal and illegal immigrants arrived in the United States. This group of people will grow in numbers to approximately 25 million people by the year 2035.

    To give another example, the estimated 25 million total legal and illegal immigrants who came to the United States during the 20-year period from 1980 to 2000, will grow to approximately 60 million people by the year 2040.

    Government officials and the business community only think of their immediate needs of keeping labor costs down. They never think about the consequence of a growing population on future generations and its impact on the future of the country.

    Governments such as the United States and Brazil have learned nothing from the past. They brought slaves from Africa to accommodate their needs a long time ago, never giving much thought about the consequences of their actions on future generations.

    Today the United States is making the same mistake again regarding its immigration policies. The US is still letting one million people immigrate to the US per year, even though today the United States has a population of 275 million people; a number which is probably double the optimum population.

    The limit to population growth in Brazil

    If we do the same type of analysis for Brazil, we might come to a similar result. Brazil probably should not have a population larger than 80 to 100 million people as its limit. Today, Brazil might have twice the population that could be considered an optimum and desirable number of people for the country based on its natural resources, size, location, type of economy, etc.

    Population explosion is, in my opinion, the most important problem in Brazil. It is the cause of all other problems in Brazil today, including poverty and destitution for a large segment of the population, drugs, crime, corruption, etc.

    There are two policies, which the Brazilian government should adopt immediately to put Brazil on the right path for its future. First, the Brazilian government should put in place a policy to reduce its population from its current 170 million people to a target of 100 million people by a certain attainable date.

    Second, the Brazilian government should adopt the "Euro" as its new currency. The adoption of the "Euro" by Brazil would help the country to move economically into the 21st century.

    These would be the major two steps, which Brazil could take today which could have the most beneficial result for its future. These policies would have a positive impact not only socially but also economically. These policies would help update the Brazilian economy and move it in the right direction in the new millennium.


    Note: I received a lot of letters-to-the-editor and direct emails regarding this article when they were published by “The Brazilians” and later by “Brazzil Magazine.”

    A number of people agree with my article and they let me know, but a lot of people were angry regarding that subject for one reason or another.

    Let me clarify one thing that I wrote in the article. In 1500 it is estimated that there were about 5 million native Indians living in Brazil. Today, the best estimates are that we still have 250,000 native Indians living in Brazil.

  2. DrChaos


    I worry more about intentional, legalized emigration of high-tech capital and knowledge.
  3. .

    March 30, 2006

    SouthAmerica: The first decennial census of the U.S. population was taken in 1790, as required by the US Constitution, in order to obtain the population counts needed for Congressional apportionment. A question on place of birth, which is the source of data on the foreign-born population, was not added until the 1850 census.

    The 1850 census introduced major advances by collecting data for each individual and by permitting write-in responses that could be coded later into a large number of categories.

    These advances facilitated, most notably, the inclusion of questions on place of birth and on occupation, both of which have been included in every subsequent census. The question on place of birth in the 1850 census required the enumerator to record the state, territory, or foreign country.

    Individuals who were born in a state or territory of the United States (and the small number of individuals for whom place of birth was not reported) were defined as native, and individuals born in a foreign country were defined as foreign born. The dramatic increase in immigration to the United States during the 1840s may have been a motivation for adding the question on place of birth in the 1850 census.

    Data on the total foreign-born population of the United States are generally comparable from 1850 to 1990, although the definition of foreign born has been refined. Since 1890, individuals who were born in a foreign country, but who had at least one parent who was an American citizen, have been defined as native rather than as foreign born.

    George Washington was disappointed with the result of the first US census count in 1790 when the total US population was only 3.9 million people


    Citizenship Status of the Foreign-Born Legal immigrant - US Population: 1970 to 1990

    Citizenship status reported

    Year: 1990

    Total = 19,767,316 people
    Naturalized citizen = 7,996,998 people
    W/Green Card = 11,770,318 people

    Year: 1980

    Total = 14,079,906 people
    Naturalized citizen = 7,110,475 people
    W/Green Card = 6,969,431 people

    Year: 1970

    Total = 9,739,723 people
    Naturalized citizen = 6,198,173 people
    W/Green Card = 3,541,550 people

    Source: US Census Bureau

    Note: The mainstream media keeps repeating in the news that in 2006 it is estimated that there are at least 12 million illegal immigrants living in the US today. The number of illegal immigrants is not included on above estimates.

    Since Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to the illegal immigrants living in the US in 1986 – then we can assume that all these illegal immigrants have moved to the US in the last 20 years – an average of 600,000 of new illegal immigrants per year.


    SouthAmerica: In the last 20 years, because of changes in domestic policies – the US government started cutting benefits to people who were legal in the US but they had only a green card. The US government changed the laws regarding legal immigrants because the people who had only green cards even though they could live in the US their entire life without becoming a US citizen – it was easy for the politicians to cut the benefits related to this group since the people with green card are not allowed to vote.

    The government of many countries around the world also adjusted their policies to accommodate the needs of their people who were living in countries such as the United States – for example they changed the law in Brazil allowing for the first time Brazilian citizens to adopt another citizenship without losing their original Brazilian citizenship.

    Since the Bush administration got into power there were a rush of people who held green cards to become US citizens – a large number of these people had been living in the US for a long time with their green cards but suddenly they realized that they might lose all its US government benefits including their social security. Millions of foreigners who were holders of green cards became American citizens more as an accommodation to not lose benefits than their desire to become US citizens.

    Today, if you are a Brazilian citizen and you adopt the US citizenship you still keep your Brazilian citizenship – now you have a dual citizenship.

    I never understood why Americans get so offended when they ask people who are living in the US and people say that they have a green card – some people gets insulted that you did not became an US citizen after you have been living in the US for a period of time.

    Most Americans don’t have a clue – but there are over 5 million Americans living outside of the US in countries around the world. I met many Americans who were living in Brazil before I immigrated to the US many years ago, and some of these people had been living in Brazil for a long time – I can’t remember of a single case of these Americans becoming a Brazilian citizen and no Brazilian that I know would expect that these Americans had to adopt the Brazilian citizenship. And if someone wanted to give up their original citizenship people would think what is wrong with you.

    Most of the 5 million Americans who live scattered around the world continue to see themselves as American citizens – it does not matter where they live and for how long - and no one expects them to change their nationality.

    The only people that I know that gave up their US citizenship are people who want to avoid paying taxes in the United States (the US is one of 3 other countries around the world that tax its citizens on their global income) – Mr. John Templeton is among a group of very wealthy Americans who changed their nationality because of the US taxation system.

    I am sure Mr. Templeton still loves the United States, but he decided to give up his citizenship for monetary reasons in the same way that millions of people who had green cards decided to become a US citizen just in case – they don’t want to lose their social security and other benefits – they also did it for monetary reasons.

    Other than for tax reasons most Americans don’t ever consider changing their nationality and they are proud of being Americans – it does not matter where they live around the world and for how long.

    It does not make sense to me to push foreign-born immigrants who are legal in the US and they hold a green card to become US citizens. Most of these people were happy with their green cards and they probably would live their entire lives in the US with their green card – but now that they have been forced to become American citizens they also have the right to vote.

    Americans should not be surprised if they end up voting to make the official language of Florida or California – Spanish instead of English. And that is only the beginning.

  4. .

    April 1, 2006

    SouthAmerica: Two weeks ago I saw an interesting movie regarding the Mexicans in California - “A Day Without a Mexican” (2004)

    Plot Outline: One day California wakes up and not a single Latino is left in the state. They have all inexplicably disappeared - chaos, tragedy, and comedy quickly ensue.


    I wonder if Lou Dobbs had the chance to see this movie - it is available on DVD.
  5. .

    Domi93: over 1 million Brazilian cross that border bt 2004 and 2005.


    April 1, 2006

    SouthAmerica: I answered the Domi93's posting on the thread about Brazil and its its space program - but my answer to DEmi93 also is part of the illegal immigration discussion - that is why I am also posting my answer on this thread.

    I have seen various studies that estimated that there are about 1.3 million Brazilians living in the US today – 50 percent are here legally, and the other 50 percent are illegal immigrants.

    The majority are here to make some money and they expect to return to Brazil after they have reached their goal and have earned enough money to open a small business or just retire in Brazil.

    At least 90 percent of the Brazilians who are living in the US came to this country on a regular airline carrier – and just a small number of very poor people are the ones trying to cross the border via Mexico.

    Until the late 1970’s very few Brazilians moved out of Brazil. This immigration from Brazil to the US started mostly in the 1980’s when the economy in Brazil was stagnating and airline tickets were for the first time at the reach of most people – even to the poorest people in Brazilian society.

    Millions of Brazilians lost their jobs since the 1970’s and they have been displaced by technology – in farming and in other areas – and also by global competition.

    Why most of these poor people are coming to the US instead of going to most countries around the world?

    The answer is very simple – the United States has a massive marketing campaign showing how perfect American society is – everybody has a big house, at least two cars, free education, and medical care, lots of shopping malls to buy anything you want and so on.

    How you get to this paradise?

    Just buy a one-way ticket to the US (which has been very low since the early 1980’s) and when you are inside the US you just go anywhere you want.

    It is a piece of cake.

    But where the Brazilian people see this American marketing campaign?

    This Brazilian immigration to the US is the result of American marketing though the American movies (all kinds of movies and TV series) that have been distributed to the Brazilian movie theaters and the Brazilian television system since its inception in the early 1950’s.

    Brazilians have been watching American movies on movie theaters and on television on a regular basis for the last 50 years. Americans did a good job marketing the United States as the place to come (legally or illegally) for people to make a buck and achieve the American dream.

    What the mainstream American media never say to the American public is that 50 percent of these illegal immigrants who take a chance and come to the US - go back home after a while because they are not able to survive and earn a living in the United States.

    By the way, thousands of Brazilians returned to Brazil after 9/11 – the planes were full going from the US to Brazil and empty from Brazil to the US - because thousands of Brazilians realized that the US was no longer the country that they knew in the past and Brazil became a better option for many of these people today.

  6. .

    April 3, 2006

    SouthAmerica: I wonder who makes the decisions to move the threads to chit-chat.

    The subject of illegal immigration has many economic ramifications to the US and to other countries – and should be considered a subject for the economics forum.

    Whoever moved this thread from the economics forum to chi chat has “no idea” and has no clue what the subject of economics covers.

    The manager of the economics Forum should post on the economics forum their very narrow and superficial guidelines of what they understand it is allowed for people to post on the economics forum.

    Today, there is a debate going on in the country with all kinds of ridiculous suggestions on what to do to stop illegal immigration – including building a “Chinese Wall” between Mexico and the United States.

    More than half of the illegal immigrants who are living in the US today – came to the US via a regular airline carrier, and then they overstayed their tourist visa and decided to stay Illegally and work here in the United States.

    In the last 10 years a noticed an avalanche of Mexicans working in our area in North New Jersey. They don’t live around here. They just come to do the work. On the condo complex where I live there are at least 15 to 20 Mexicans doing all kinds of work – from painting jobs, to cutting the grass, to removing the snow, and so on…

    I believe that most of them are here illegally and they don’t speak English – but they are hard workers and I don’t see anyone around here complaining about them.

    They do their hard work and then they are gone – I don’t know to where? I know they don’t live around our area because I don’t see people who look like Mexicans shopping in the stores around our area. They must live somewhere else.

    The talking heads on television claim that there are over 6 million Mexicans who are illegal immigrants in the United States.

    I know that it is estimated that there are at least 600,000 Brazilian illegal immigrants living in the US today.

    The American mainstream media gives the idea to the American public that most of the 12 million illegal immigrants who are living in the US today – came to the US via Mexico.

    Even the ones who came from Mexico probably took a bus in Mexico and came by bus to the USA. There are also the ones who bought a one-way airline ticket to the US from Mexico. And finally there are the ones who crossed some kind of desert and so on… The media likes to concentrate on this group because it is more exciting and risky to cross some kind of desert than just take a bus or an airplane to enter the US.

    The story of the Brazilian illegal immigrants does not meet the American media’s guideline for coverage. It is not glamorous, or exciting, it does not involve smuggling people inside containers, and so on… It is boring for the American audience if they realize how easy it is for most Brazilians to enter the United States and then become an illegal immigrant – most of them came to the US via Varig Airlines, Delta, American, Continental and so on.

    Yes, the Brazilians had a hard time going thru customs at Kennedy Airport – sometimes took them over two hours in line until they where able to go through customs. Things got much better when they started flying directly from Brazil to Newark Airport.

    Today, the Brazilian illegal immigrants are being ignored by the American mainstream media: they are not reporting about this group because it is not adventurous or exciting, the way they enter the US: most of these people are coming to the US on regular flights on regular international airlines.

    The talking heads and the American politicians – if they were serious about ending illegal immigration – then they should suggest to the American people that the US should not allow any tourists from Mexico or Latin America. They should stop all commercial flights between the US and all these countries – if they close the door on tourism then they don’t have to worry that a lot of these tourists would overstay in the United States.

    What it is more exciting for the American talking heads to talk about on the news?

    1) A group of Mexicans where crossing the border and they were trying to enter the US after walking in the desert for many days without water and food – and many of them were transported inside freight containers. After finally, entering US soil they were rounded up by the American border patrol and after staying in jail for 6 months they were returned to Mexico to try to enter the US all over again.


    2) A group of Brazilian tourists landed on Kennedy Airport a month ago after a 10-hour flight from Rio de Janeiro to New York City. The flight went very well and they were served diner and breakfast before arriving in New York City. They also had the chance to watch a movie during their trip. After landing in New York and going thru customs – this was the last time the American immigration heard from them since they overstayed their tourist visa and became illegal immigrants in the old USA.

  7. domi93


    thanks to that amenesty we have people like you in this country...
    we dont need another 11 millions southamerica in US..
  8. Brazil please send your nympho non HIV positive 18 to 21 year old females with no kids!:D
  9. .

    Domi93: thanks to that amnesty we have people like you in this country...
    we don’t need another 11 millions SouthAmerica in US..


    SouthAmerica: I came to the US legally. Our family received the green card thru the normal US immigration process.


    tradewiz50: Brazil please send your nympho non HIV positive 18 to 21 year old females with no kids!


    SouthAmerica: If you are worried about HIV then you probably like to play also with boys.

    Most of the HIV cases in Brazil are related to gay men and not to beautiful women.

    I would never make that association HIV and beautiful women – that shows where your mind is.