You're right. Let's get back on topic, myself included. I say trader "A" can trade using price action only. Trader "B" can use indicators. Trader "C" employs/combines both, and perhaps has the most success. Victor, what method do you use? I've been putting up some indicators lately and am finding that patience and good observation can bring about some really good trades.
I have always used indicators. However, I now understand how others trade without them. To be honest, looking at things without indicators has given me a very clear picture of what is going on with price.
Maybe what Jack may be saying here is this: You have tunnel vision when you focus on gaining an 'edge'. I happen to agree with Jack here, but am not interested in debating anyone either. Once one gets past the narrow focus of finding a micro 'edge', and tries to really understand how markets operate generally, one truly enters a different dimension. I have never understood Jack's posts but I think I can see through this one and what he is saying makes sense to me: Markets cycle through different environments and it is up to the profitable trader to recognize which one of those he is in to pick the best approach and take money out. In contrast, the guy clutching on to his 'setup' devised with complete disregard for market fundamentals ( I don't mean fundamentals in the usual sense, but the fundamentals of price action or the cycle of price action rather) will never get it. He just waits for his setup where he believes he has an 'edge' and then trades. That's fine, but as Jack points out, if you want real success you need to get beyond that. As an example think of the guy who uses a reversal bar pattern to 'enter' the market short. All he knows is that he's backtested such and such candlestick, adding a bollinger band and other indicators to the setup so that it becomes a 'high %' setup. Then he waits for his setup to happen.... ok, it finally appears, but then the market stops him out. Fine. He takes his loss and sits back, until the next signal. In the mean time, the market roars past in a furious uptrend, and our trader sits there wondering, geez, how frustrating to wait for my setup, if only I had a way to take advantage of that. But he can't... he's too focused on his narrow 'setup'. It may sound simplistic, but being on the right side of the market and knowing how to exploit it is all that matters, the setup is always secondary to that. How does one get to the stage where one can understand immediately what the right side of the market is? That takes a lot of screen time, indicators or no indicators. Good luck everyone.
No waiting, shoppers, on aisle number seven for those who have multiple independent edges. Having only one edge is like having only one fetish. The sign of a very dull mind. This whole thread reminds me of James Thurber's book "Is Sex Necessary?"
Sorry guys, I'm a little late. I was just filling up my forms as the market backed up like a huge cement truck and spewed forth mud into my account. I got every last wheelbarrow full of it this AM...no waste at all. So anyway, what's going on in this thread? Have I missed anything? JohnnyK
You can put a dress on a pig but it's still a pig. Nice try at making sense out of nonsense, but no cigar. Here's an example of the nonsense that can't be redeemed: me: "Money management is necessary as well but it means nothing without good timing." Grob109: "I have a big surprise for you. Money management has nothing to do with the use of your time and when you take the actions that you do." Yeah, that's implicit in what I said. DUH! Like hcour said, zealots with an agenda are too busy spewing it to pay attention to what was actually said by anybody else and to try to have a meaningful dialogue.
IMHO people are wasting time discussing on a metalevel. any reasonable person will not disregard a specific method before he has tested out its validity, either by live trading or by back testing. depending whether we are talking about a system trader or a more discretionary guy. what is a price-only thing? the fact that after down days up days are more likely? or that high recent range is bullish? can you extract that out of indicators as well? sure. then it spells: close below average. indicators or not ... it is just names. do not spend time discussing the meta levels, go out and test out more than you did yesterday. peace
Man, that was a wasted post. I began the thread with an open mind to find out more about indicatorless trading so I could test it out are you able to contribute something more useful about the subject at hand?(not being a butthead, it's a serious question)