The shemagh is pretty good. Sure, its basically a long tea towel, but i notice they are optional issue for special forces and whatnot now, and i doubt its just to blend in with the locals.
You were on topic, that took me by complete surprise... and brought to mind actual on-topic things like houses with shutters that are changed seasonally for cooling, a form of swamp cooling done by hanging a wet towel in front of a door and having the wind exit the room via a hole in the roof... arab sea farers have somehow found sources of fresh water coming up from the ocean floors, how the heck they ever did that, and can find them again is way beyond me but they are reported to do just that.....
That's OBL's primary complaint. You said that terror attacks against american targets all over the world are caused by our refusal to take the interests of the arab street into account. As these attacks are carried out by OBL, Al-Qaeda and similar organizations it follows that they represent the views and interests of the Arab/Muslim world and that every our action/treaty/agreement in the Middle East should be cleared by OBL. Your other response is quite interesting too, you failed to explain how to realistically deal with dictatorships other than stating the obvious that we should proceed cautiously. You failed to come up with examples of US violations of international laws in the middle east prior to 2001, you failed to explain distortions, political correctness and lies of what you had lovingly called "free media", you did not even begin to substantiate you claim that the US is doing 99% of the killing in the Middle East. On the other hand you found a million excuses for muslim terror attacks in Russia, riots in France (like it or not but 95% of rioters were muslims) and violent cartoon protests. In other words it was a typical response of a politically correct, left leaning, america hating european - no matter what happens in the world it's the fault of the US, UK and Israel, no matter how despicably muslims can act all over the planet their actions can be justified by bad America and they need to be understood, consoled and treated better.
No it's not, and I've told you this, if you didn't believe me you should have made it clear. The specific reason for the attack on WTC is according to himself this: http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/1964.cfm You should read the rest of the transcript as well, although I've highlighted some of the most relevant points in this particular issue. Also if you read some history of that time, you will see that he is not exactly lying. A whole lot of humans did lose their lives and the US not only allowed it, they participated from time to time (Gulf war I, etc). Do you know how it feels like to have a child teared apart by bombs? Do you know how it feels like to drag half the bloody body of your son out of the ruins of your own house? Do you know how it feels like to hold a baby with it's head blown off? A whole lot of arabs do, and some of them simply snaps and decides to dedicate their lives to fight the evil that caused it, while others remains calm and tries to start new lives. You take away islam from the region, and I assure you the reactions to these experiences would be pretty much the same. THIS is what drives the terrorist mind. Not the hatred of freedom, not fear of democracy, not anti-semitism, not hate of western culture like Bush and McCain have been saying so many times most americans actually believe it. It is the perception that the US government hates islam and arabs and enjoys oppressing, slaughtering and killing them all that makes the terrorists tick. What we're discussing here is why the terrorists are doing what they're doing, so whether the motives of america was good or bad while the killing was taking place is not relevant. Tell me, if your neighbor is angry with you because he thinks you're fucking his wive, how can you prevent him from attacking you by fucking his wive even harder? This is what your government is doing.
"Food is good. Bats eat shit. Therefor shit is good". You said something about me taking a class in logic earlier. If you can't see the fallacy in your reasoning here, I suggest you take such a class yourself. I didn't fail to do anything, I am still waiting for you to respond to the following question: "Is it going to change anything if I do? In what way exactly?" You see, I have had this debate several times before. And people with your views usually don't respond to reasoning or new information in a normal way. They have a clear cut picture in your head about how things SHOULD be, and they take pride in sticking to this flawed view; they think that standing steady and holding onto their perceptions in a debate is some kind of a virtue, no matter how much evidence one throws at them and no matter how wrong they turn out to be. The last war on Iraq demonstrated that more clear than anything; I was telling people that there where no WMDs and that Iraq would be fucked up if the US invaded, and I turned out to be 100% right on both counts. Did it change anything? No, the warmongers simply adjusted the new information to fit their old view rather than fit their view to the new information. So because of this, before I spend time on looking up the evidence, I always want to know what difference it will make. Because if it will not make a difference at all, which is almost ALWAYS the case with neocons and religious fanatics, it's nothing but a waste of time. I've made it clear several times now that I don't view the muslim world as innocent. On the contrary, if you where a muslim defending attacks on the US, I would have been using the same tone I am using now, telling you how you've made your own bed and how many mistakes you've done. If one part is wrong, it doesn't mean the other is right. Why can't you understand that both the US and the muslim world might have done some wrongs? I don't hate america, I actually like the idea, and more than anything I feel sorry for the people. I've always had a great deal of admiration for the founding fathers of the US (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin), and they actually managed to draw up a constitution that kept the american people free for quite some time. However, from the beginning of the 20th century to this day, huge changes have been taking place without most americans even noticing. I'm not going to get into all the very unconstitutional actions and laws you have adopted over the years; as an american you should really feel obliged to study this yourself. But basically, what have been done lately is, your government has dug up the graves of the founding fathers, they have dragged their bodies out of the graves, opened up their mouths, bent over and taken a huge steaming dump in their mouths. That's right, feces in the mouths of the founding fathers. And what did they use to wipe there asses? nothing less than the constitution of the United States of America. And on top of it all, while doing this, they've been calling them self "patriots" and "true americans". The war on Iraq was not only unlawful according to international law, it was highly unconstitutional. Your government sent 18 year old men into an illegal war, where thousands have died (a higher number than the 911-attacks claimed), and tens of thousands are wounded for life. 18 years old, do you understand how young that is? At that age, they've hardly felt the warmth of a woman, and now they're dead, not only for nothing, but for something that was wrong and illegal according to american laws. What disgusts me the most about the so called patriots in america is the way you're claiming to be supporting your troops and attack anybody opposing the war by calling them unpatrioting. I tell you if the government had tryed something like this in the old days, in the days of Franklin and Washington, they would have failed big time. Your great great grandfather and his fellow citizens would have grabbed their guns and protected their constitutional freedom against such a government. You see, the second amendment is not for the fun in owning a gun, it was for the protection of the people against corruption in the government. Sadly enough, with the modern corporate mass media (which was not taken into consideration when the constitution was written), the government was able to grow huge enough for the second amendment to be absolutely powerless.
A whole lot of humans did lose their lives and the US not only allowed it, they participated from time to time (Gulf war I, etc). Are you insane? Israel invades Lebanon and it's the US's fault? You people whine every day that you don't want the US to be the world's policeman and 5 min later you whine that the US is not policing Israel good enough for your taste. I can understand that an ignorant muslim fundamentalist can believe this nonsense but you claim to be a civilized christian european, how can you take that seriously? And how can you pretend not to remember that Gulf war I was authorized by the UN, not the US, that dozens of countries including arab and muslim countries willingly participated in the liberation of Kuwait. Do you know how it feels like to have a child teared apart by bombs? As you said before in a very callous manner the chances of it happening are way below the chances of being hit by a lightning. It was your point, not mine though, my point is that in most cases it is the fault of their own governments, their own mullahs, their own terrorist organizations... What we're discussing here is why the terrorists are doing what they're doing, No that's not what we are discussing, we're in complete agreement on why they are doing what they are doing. We know perfectly well that they don't want our presence in the middle east, they hate our alliance with Israel (which btw is a sovereign state, a democracy, a member of the UN etc so our alliance with Israel is both legitimate and moral) and blame everything happening in the world on the US. What we're discussing is what can be done about it. I believe that their demands are absurd, you maintain that they are reasonable, I believe that we need to fight back and destroy the terrorists, you think that we need to bend over backwards to satisfy their "demands", I believe that we have every right to conduct our foreign policy any way we see fit (as long as it's legal), you insist that every action we take, every treaty we sign, every agreement we consider, every ally we support should be approved by every terrorist that may have a stake in that specific development. And if they don't approve our legal and legitimate actions whatever happens next is our own fault as according to you we don't take the wishes of the people into account. I am still waiting for you to respond to the following question: "Is it going to change anything if I do? In what way exactly?" That depends on what it is you have to say but one thing will certainly change - your credibility. After you claimed to have a list of American violations of international laws in the Middle East before 2001 and that Americans were doing 99% of killing and failed to come up with even a shred of evidence you can't expect to be taken seriously, can you?
Where did Israel get the intelligence and the weapons from? At the time this happened, Israel was somewhat a client state of the US (Actually I would rather argue it was and is the other way around though). Ever since the creation of the state of Israel, the US has been its enabler, giving her all kinds of support with the tax money of the american people. and without the role of the US in this conflict, Israel would not have had the great odds they had. Thats the facts. Now saying that the US was completely innocent in what happened is like saying the Soviet Union was completely innocent in what happened in North Vietnam, North Korea, etcetera. Yes, for you the chances of it happening are indeed virtually non-existent, and thats good. However, it seems like you missed the point I was trying to make. My point is, allot of people in the middle east did experience this; they did lose family members, they did lose their homes and they did get their lives teared apart. And the US did have a role in all of this. This is what makes people want to blow up the enemy. Now whether the US was actually an enemy or not is not interesting; what's relevant when we are discussing why terrorists have become terrorists is how they perceive the reality, and according to them, the US did fuck them up. In other words, if the US really truly want peace with these people, this is what needs to be fixed; the US needs to show that they are in fact not the enemy. Bombing some ten thousand arabs in Iraq in 2003 clearly does not show that. So what happens when more people experiences little blown up babies? More terrorists are born. This is obviously known to the US government; I wouldn't think I'm a better analyst then them. So tell me, why are they still doing it? Why are they saying that they are fighting terrorists, while the fighting takes place in a way that creates ten times as many terrorists? Where's the logic? Is it really that unthinkable for you that your government does all of this because of your desperate need for oil? No, we are not in agreement on why they are doing what they are doing. You seem to think they are doing it simply because they don't like the presence of the US in their lands. This is wrong, the mere presence of americans have never been an issue. It's the wars, the support of corrupt governments, the bombings, the enabling of Israel and the blowing up of babies that makes them hate you. As I've said too many times now, whether you agree that the US has in fact hurt the arabs or not is not an issue here, the issue when talking about why they attacked you is how they perceive the course of history. Obviously when we're discussing the broader picture and what needs to be done to stop terrorism, we have to take into account what the americans have actually done. Thats the bigger picture. In this particular thread of exchange we were discussing why terrorists are terrorists. To get the bigger picture right, we need to get the facts right. As long as your government keeps saying the terrorists hates you ONLY because you love freedom and democracy, there will be no less terrorists, and you will keep sending your young men to fight and die for something far worse than nothing. Tell me, why do you think Bush insists on using this false rethoric? Why is McCain saying the same things? Is it possible that my arguments are so difficult to respond to, that you actually have to make up artificial opinions for me in order to say anything at all? Or is this some kind of trick you use to make it seem for other readers like your crushing me? Because even if english is not my first language, I feel fairly certain that my message cannot be that unclear. It is utterly bullshit from beginning to end, and you know it. Please, stick to what I'm saying. If something is unclear or if something seems unreasonable, just ask me to clarify it. Well, then tell me what information needs to be put forward in order for you to see that the US have in fact done stuff to the arabs which if done to the americans, you too would react with an anger great enough to fight back. Americas involvements in the middle east are extremely broad and compex, and the effects they have had on the peoples differs from country to country, from region to region and in some cases even from town to town. There has literally been written hundreds of books on the issue, so simply stating some facts and backing it up by wikipedia articles is not going to cover more than a few details of the entire picture. Because of this, I am trying to find out exactly how I can say what needs to be said in less than 10 000 words, which is not very easy. My chances will be best if you give me some sort of criteria, some frame or some particular kind of act that might make you understand. But since you obviously are not going to be helpful in this, allow me to make a suggestion. Let's take the palestinians; if I show you that the palestinians have experianced something that if done to americans or any other people for that matter, they would react mostly the same, will you then allow yourself to understand that the US might have done some wrongs and that Islam is not the real drive behind their anger? In my 99% of the killing-comment I did not make account for killing in between arabs, only killings between arabs and americans. If you take the war on terror meaning terrorist attacks and the US vs. Al Qaida, the US vs. Iraq and the US vs. Aghanistan), if you take all the fatalities in these things and add them up, the US will account for 99% of the fatalities. That's without taking into account the fact that most of the killing between arabs and kurds in Iraq today would not have taken place if not the US had invaded the country. No responds to my comments about your government shitting all over you by the way? You disagree? You believe their acts are constitutional and patriotic?
At the time this happened, Israel was somewhat a client state of the US (Actually I would rather argue it was and is the other way around though). Thanks for demonstrating how confused and conflicted you actually are. You would rather argue that the US is Israel's client state but you are arguing the opposite instead because it is more convenient. LOL. But you still think you know what you're talking about, don't you? Let me explain something pretty basic to you, when it appears that two independent countries are simultaneously each other's client states that usually means that they are friends and allies. Ever since the creation of the state of Israel, the US has been its enabler, giving her all kinds of support Nonsense, the US started supporting Israel in the 1970s, long after Israel had won all its major wars and developed nuclear weapons. Now saying that the US was completely innocent Even if Israel was to blame for the wars (and it's a huge IF but even if it was) - the US is absolutely 100% innocent. Selling arms, helping financially, sharing intelligence with any legitimate and democratic state is the prerogative of any country on the planet and if someone in Arabia or Europe does not like it - tough luck, it still does not make it illegal, immoral or wrong and it still does not explain and justify terrorism and attacks on civilians. americans have never been an issue. It's the wars, the support of corrupt governments, the bombings, the enabling of Israel and the blowing up of babies that makes them hate you. But that's the whole point, I don't give a shit whether they like our policies or not. If they don't - they should find legitimate ways to oppose these policies instead of resorting to terrorism. My and their ideas of morality are completely different, they don't like our support of Israel and I find it moral, legal and proper, I on the other side deplore the policies of the Iranian government and their support of Hamas and Hezbollah but it does not occur to me to start murdering Iranians. And that's the difference between civilized people like me, arab savages like Osama and their western sympathizers like yourself. when talking about why they attacked you is how they perceive the course of history. I don't give a shit what specifically Osama Bin Laden does not like about our policies in the Middle East and I don't want my government to conduct our foreign policy based on the demands of the terrorists. It's obviously very important to you and it's you who are willing to bend over backwards. Good luck with that approach, it worked so well in the 1930s. But I just don't think that Osama's issues with our foreign policies in the Middle East should play any role in our decision making process. the US have in fact done stuff to the arabs which if done to the americans, you too would react with an anger great enough to fight back. I have repeatedly asked you to substantiate this claim and provide examples of American actions that would violate international law. The best you've come up with was Gulf War I which was sanctioned by the UN and our support of Israel which is legal, legitimate and moral. Is that the best you can do? In my 99% of the killing-comment I did not make account for killing in between arabs, only killings between arabs and americans. Oh, so we are not doing 99% of all killing in the Middle East as you claimed before. OK, it is a step in the right direction but even this is lame. Show me how many arab civilians were killed by americans before 9/11. No responds to my comments about your government shitting all over you by the way? You disagree? You believe their acts are constitutional and patriotic? That's because I am not going to feed your strawman. I don't support this government, I don't (and never did) support the war in Iraq, I am not a conservative and I am not a neocon. The purpose of my posts in this thread was not to support our foreign or domestic policies or Bush administration but to demonstrate the savagery of modern Islam and the stupidity and ignorance of their western supporters and apologists.
You're one funny eurodude: you try to show Muslim contributions to humanity and fail to find a single example of these contributions in the last 800 years. You accuse the US of violating international laws in the Middle East and fail to come up with a single example of such violations. You accuse the US of doing 99% of all the killing in the middle east and don't even try to back it up. you backpedal and claim that the US killed 99 times more arabs than arabs killed americans before 9/11, I bet you won't be able to prove that either. You argue that the US is Israel's client state and that at the same time Israel is the US's client state. And you argue that not just in one post but in one sentence. You accuse the US of the First Gulf War even though it was sanctioned by the UN and supported by the entire world (including the arab/muslim world) with the exception of Al-Qaeda, Yasser Arafat and you. The entire essense of your posts and your views boils down to the idea that because Osama Bin Laden hates our foreign policy we must change our foreign policy or else his actions are completely justified. Have I missed anything?
Can we please try to avoid making this debate about me or you rather than the issues? Obviously I think you're the conflicted and confused one, and I actually believe you're a small and petty man too, but if I keep telling you that, this entire discussion will be polluted by irrelevant crap. Let's stick to the issues, shall we? The relationship between the US and Israel is somewhat unique. Unlike with the relationship between for instance the Soviet and Cuba, there is no mutual interests for Israel and the US to enjoy. While Israel treats the US like some sort of Frankenstein monster, fooling her into fight for her (1) and at the same time watching her as if afraid of being eaten (2), the US treats Israel more like a little chihuahua, feeding her (3), cleaning up the crap after her (4), aiding her and supporting her whenever necessary (5). In spite of the fact that the little chihuahua is biting poor Frankenstein fiercely from time to time (6). It's really funny actually, although I feel sorry for the average american who pays the price. (1) The Lavon-affair is quite impressive, where israeli agents attacked US and UK targets under false flag with the intention of generating support: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair Considering the fact that Israel is one of the greatest countries in the world on covert operations, one can only imagine what never gets uncovered. (2) Israel has been spying on the US for decades, watching her closer than any enemy. Even though a whole lot of incidents have surfaced making this a rather large iceberg, there might be a whole lot still hiding under the water. You can read about most of the incidents here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard http://www.amconmag.com/2008/2008_06_02/cover.html http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0496/9604014.htm (3) Where oh where do I begin on this one. I guess it started back in 1951 when the US gave Israel $65 million dollars in aid for Israel to bring holocaust survivors to the land, which is another way of saying the US aided Israel economically in removing palestinians from the land of their forefathers and settling jewish immigrants in their homes and towns. Potatos potatos, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-United_States_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_aid_to_Israel http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm (4) With the rise of the powerful Israel-lobby in the US, support obviously came in many, many forms, from guaranteed political support to hugo loads of weapon support. You can read about this on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy Is there anything wrong with a little friendly support you might ask? When the american people are lied to, persuaded and betrayed like you have been by your socalled friends, yeah I think it is very wrong. This is a huge issue which I don't have the time to teach you about today, but you can start by taking a look at the incident when Haim Katz, a jewish business man from New York got enough of the bullshit and decided to do something about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Steiner_(AIPAC) Sadly though it didn't have much of an effect; AIPAC enjoys today more power than ever. (5) In the UN security council, the US have basically given Israel free hands to use the US Veto in any way they wish to. You can see a list of Vetoes here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html http://ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html (6) The attack on USS Liberty was despicable, where Israel got away with murdering 34 US sailors and injuring another 173: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident Although it's hard to say whether this was supposed to be a false flag op. or an honest mistake, you should pay special attention to the Ongoing_controversy_and_unresolved_questions-part, and read what the admiral, the CIA Director, and of course the crew who where there are saying. Really scary stuff when compared to the official reaction of your politicians. Obviously, the espionage on America and the lies and manipulations by AIPAC should be mentioned here too. And of course the Lavon affair. Yeah, and I'm Superman. The US have been aiding Israel at least since 1951. The rest of your comments about Israel is more or less covered in the above writings. If you feel like you've made some relevant point that I've ignored, just bring it up again. I didn't claim that, you claimed that I claimed that. See the difference? Indirectly through sanctions and by support of other nations, the US have enabled the death of millions upon millions, although this was allowed by international law. Directly however, I guess it's just those in the first Gulf war. But who cares? Towel heads, right? I see. How is that working out for you?