Liberals - what caused the problems with Greece?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by TGregg, May 10, 2010.

  1. Hello

    Hello

    There in lies the problem, and the reason we will eventually face mass uprisings throughout the world, there is a fine balance between some businesses eliminating a few jobs, in order to make a few more dollars, and no one being able to afford to buy your stuff, and all businesses eventually collapsing based on the current monetary system. Where does that balance collapse?

    I think about this often because when you think about man/woman's primordial need it is the need to eat/find shelter. From a primal level we expend energy to do the various jobs we do in order to eat and survive, the system for doing this has obviously become much different and much more efficient, and is currently able to provide food/shelter for many more people, however at what point does modernised society create a hungry pack of wolves willing to viciously go after whatever comes in the way of them fulfilling their need to survive? This is why I think we will face mass uprisings sometime within the next 10-20 years all over the world, or atleast in G7 countries, which will ripple down to the rest of the world.

    btw not criticising your business, as i have probably eliminated atleast 5-10 jobs through automation and use of excel through trading, just stating the reality of the world in which we live.
     
    #41     May 10, 2010
  2. Hello

    Hello

    Sure there is many jobs created by new technology, however i do not believe that current technology is creating jobs at the same pace it destroys/outsources them. When broadband was new a cable man had to come install it, but it also eliminated my need for anyone to physically go out and do research for me. One persons discovery in the field of technology can eliminate millions of jobs. New developments create new technological demand for jobs only insofar as we have the need for a human mind, as opposed to a computer mind to figure out these developments.

    I am young (only 29) but what computers may be able to do in the future scares the shit out of me, thats why I am trying to make as much money as i can while possible. Think about what happens when we are able to develop artificial intelligence in computers? Dont know how realistic some of the technology aspects of the following video are but if you make your living in a job requiring your mind I would be scared.

    From the video:

    5:25 "Predictions are by 2013 a supercomputer will be built that exceeds the computation capability of the human brain. By 2023 when 1st graders will be just 23 years old and beginning their careers it will only take a 1000$ computer to exceed the capabilities of the human brain."

    by 2049 a 1000$ computer will exceed the computational abilities of the human race


    <object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ljbI-363A2Q"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ljbI-363A2Q" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>
     
    #42     May 10, 2010
  3. It's a long litany of factors, starting with Greek history and ending with the poor design and enforcement of the Growth and Stability Pact in recent years. There are solutions and they have been discussed ad nauseam, by various pundits. My favorite commentator, whose views most resemble mine, is Simon Johnson. I have posted links in various threads to his blog.

    Because, very simply, you address your questions to "the left" and the "liberals". I am not "the left"/"liberal" and neither am I "the right". I have a brain and I like to think for myself. But, technically speaking, I don't even qualify as a respondent to your query. And, obviously, there are problems with Greece, regardless of what your political leanings are. But that's exactly my point.
     
    #43     May 11, 2010
  4. I know some Greek history. I am also reasonably proficient in the use of Google and Wikipedia, thanks...

    So what exactly are you saying then?

    I gave you an example of nations that have strong unions that are far less "leftist" than Greece, which means powerful unions don't necessarily have to be a "leftist" creation. You also agree that there are countries in Europe (members of the former Soviet bloc), which, while far more "communist" relatively recently, are not experiencing the same economic issues as Greece. So, quite clearly, "commie" history doesn't necessarily translate into economic problems.
     
    #44     May 11, 2010
  5. TGregg

    TGregg

    Holy moly, talk about holding people back from advancing through school! 23 year old first graders, JFC.

    :D
     
    #45     May 11, 2010
  6. Yannis

    Yannis

    More Bailouts
    by Larry Levin


    "Only in the current Bizzaro World of the global Ponzi-economy could today have happened. We were witness to the European central bankers declaring that they will take a play out of Benron Bernanke's playbook: bailouts for all their banks. NOBODY with connections...anywhere on the planet...is allowed to fail.

    Of course YOU are allowed to fail. The central bankers only want you to keep your mouth SHUT and fund the never ending bailouts through taxation that will come soon, and certainly a lower standard of living for several generations. They have degrees from Harvard and Oxford you see, which makes them beyond reproach. Since you you do not, you should not question their Keynesian MADNESS. Yeah, shut up and take it they say. They know what's best.

    The Europeans have essentially said they will, like Ben "Sir Prints a Lot" Bernanke and his ownership of the US mortgage market, throw away nearly $1 TRILLION to back up all of their banks. A massive bailout indeed. But that's not all - Fannie Mae needs ANOTHER BAILOUT - and says it may fail despite more of your money.

    With such fantastic news, the Dow exploded to more than a 400 point gain.

    According to Bloomberg, Fannie Mae (FNM) lost another $11.5 billion last quarter. Fannie Mae has posted $136.8 billion in losses in the preceding 10 quarters, and the new aid request would bring its total draw from the Treasury to $84.6 billion since April 2009. This is why you never want the government to run private companies: it only gets worse.

    “We expect our foreclosures to increase in 2010 as a result of the adverse impact that the weak economy and high unemployment have had and are expected to have on the financial condition of borrowers,” the company said in a press release.

    The full story can be found here http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a3PxBY.a8Tt4&pos=6 but it's worse than this. In the FNM quarterly report it fessed up to the truth: FNM is in such bad shape, it may go out of business even after all of your money has been stolen to support it.

    When Treasury provides the requested funds, the aggregate liquidation preference on the senior preferred stock will be $84.6billion, which will require an annualized dividend of approximately $8.5 billion. This amount exceeds our reported annual net income for each of the last eight fiscal years, in most cases by a significant margin.

    Although Treasury’s funds under the senior preferred stock purchase agreement permit us to remain solvent and avoid receivership, the resulting dividend payments are substantial. Given our expectations regarding future losses and draws from Treasury, we do not expect to earn profits in excess of our annual dividend obligation to Treasury for the indefinite future. As a result of these factors, there is significant uncertainty as to our long-term financial sustainability.

    Said another way, FNM cannot even pay the interest on its handouts outs...err, ah, bailout funds.

    What does a garden variety idiot in Congress have to say about this? Exactly what you might expect - no big deal. “We haven’t had any substantive discussion as to what the future picture of Fannie and Freddie should be,” Representative Scott Garrett of New Jersey, a Republican, said in an interview. “I see absolutely nothing happening in the area of GSEs of any substance between now and the end of the year.”

    In addition to this bailout there is the massive European bailout, which is essentially saving French banks from their terrible loan decisions. But that's all across the pond right? We have nothing to do with it - right? WRONG! Of the nearly $1 trillion bailout package, the IMF portion is E220 billion, or $287 billion at today's exchange rate. Since the US and its taxpayers represent roughly 20% of total IMF funding, the middle class will - WITHOUT VOTING - fund about $57 billion of the Euro/French/Greek/Spain bailout. This isn't a new phenomenon but I thought you should know where even more of your dollars are going.

    In addition to this, the Federal Reserve of Benron Bernanke is (already) reopening its massive currency swaps to help bail out its brothers-in-theft: Euro trash bankers. The Fed says these are 100% riskless transactions but somehow I just don't believe it. When the Fed's balance sheet is expected to grow by $500 billion, I get nervous. If anything happens that isn't approved by the Fed, it will send more of your money there to stop it. It's a done deal.

    If the economy was as healthy as the dimwits in Washington DC claim, would FNM still be broke and raising the possibility of its own end? Would GM lie about paying back its loans? Would FRE need another bailout? Would Europe need a bailout?

    The current spike in volatility and nobody-can-fail crowd reminds me a lot of the days in 2008 when TARP was finally passed. The Dow skyrocketed nearly 1,000 points...before the "fit hit the shan."...

    Behold the age of infinite moral hazard! Today is the 402nd day of legalized accounting fraud on a grand scale. April 2nd, 2009 was the day CONgress forced FASB to suspend rule 157 in favor of deceitful accounting."
     
    #46     May 11, 2010
  7. Yannis

    Yannis

    Problems Of Greece

    I was born in Greece - was brought here when I was 18 months old and grew up in upstate New York. Still have family in the old country and visit most years, usually at Christmas time. I know the language well and the history and the kind of people who live there. Here's a quick summary of my feelings about what drives that beautiful small country:

    Last Christmas, I spent a few hours in a large bookstore in Athens. I asked where the economics/investment/trading books were and was told to take the elevator up to the 5th floor and turn left. There, I discovered a huge expansion of books densely arranged on a giant bookcase system agaist the wall. There must have been thousands of economics/investment etc books, in Greek, English, Italian, French and German, a super collection. No one else was looking at them, I had them all to myself.

    And yet the long room was very noisy... why? I turned my head to the right and saw literally dozens of people perusing the long line of bookcases against the opposite wall, happily looking at, exchanging amongst themselves, and discussing the thousands of books there... The topic on that part of the room: History!

    It's hard for us Americans to fathom the love that Greeks and Italians et al have for history, how much they learn from it and what they think of its significance for their lives today. It's easy for some of us to dismiss as impractical or dreamy - but that doesn't get us closer to understanding the other side.

    Yet, I can see that they often make impractical decisions - many Europeans do. In the same way, it is hard to fathom why is Germany (despite their negative rhetoric at times) constantly funding so many aspects of the EU operations, unless we understand two key demons in the German psyche, both related to history: the 2,000 year old German dream of dominating Europe, and the massive guilt that has developed as a result of those efforts.

    Again, it's easy for us Americans (with, essentially, no burden of history) to dismiss that, but that doesn't help us understand. What do you think the average Greek thinks about the bailout? Let's look at some recent history:

    In October 1940 Mussolini (bloody dictator of a country 6 times bigger and a lot richer than Greece) sent his ambassador to the Greek leader, Metaxas, demanding that Italian troops be allowed through Greek space and her 2,000 islands. The thinly masqued objective was to proceed towards Egypt and the oilfields of Saudi Arabia and cut off the oil flow to Europe. England was nowhere able to defend that part of the world in 1940... The US were not involved... All other European powers had been subjugated by the Axis... Russia was anticipating a huge German invasion... There was no light anywhere.

    Yet, Metaxas said "no" and over the following six months defeated the invading Italian troops back though Albania. The first successful campaign against the Axis, giving hope to many. Hitler couldn't tolerate that unstable southern situation and turned away from Russia, came down and defeated the exausted Greeks who had something like 12 tanks to oppose his 1,000... You get the picture. Athens fell in April 1941. But the Russian invasion now had to wait and start late in July 1941, instead of March, which caused the Germans to get caught up there in the winter and ultimately to be defeated and restreat...

    Greece endured a brutal 4 year occupation by the Nazis and because of the 4 year civil war that followed (against the Communists, who had been armed by the Allied forces to fight against the Germans) was never given much of the Marshall Plan resources. The country was destroyed and remained very poor for many years. It's a miracle that they managed to pull themselves out of that and develop a modern economy, something like the 27th (in size) in the world. They now number about 11 million people, 2 million of which are immigrants, a huge percentage which is hard to deal with.

    A key statistic is that almost half the Greeks work for themselves - and they work 100 hours per week, and they never retire... You never hear about them, unless you go there and visit those millions of wonderful shops, hotels and small businesses. The other half is the famous one, the civil servants who barely put in 20 hours per week of real work, expert backgammon players and ouzo drinkers.

    If you wonder what the average Greek thinks of the bailout from Germany etc, it's something like "they owe us!" Sounds strange, but true. They know that Germany will never let them (and the other small countries of the EU) go, for their own reasons: lust for power and guilt. Imo, the Greeks have the upper hand here.

    But, of course, they need to pull their act together, control the Anarchists and Communists who cause the trouble in the demostrations and turn things around. Or else.
     
    #47     May 11, 2010
  8. Yannis

    Yannis

    ATHENS' WOES HEADED OUR WAY
    By DICK MORRIS


    "When the European Union voted to put up a $1 trillion fund to bail out indebted countries in the Eurozone, it implicitly rejected the alternative, which was to purchase the Greek debt outright, making it an obligation of the EU as a whole and no longer just a Greek affair. By opting for the bailout, the EU has taken a middle course -- one that won't work -- between full debt assumption and abandonment. The markets will keep pressing until the EU throws in the towel and buys up all the outstanding Greek debt. Shortly thereafter, it will have to do the same thing for Portugal and perhaps for Italy and Spain.

    Greece owes $400 billion. Portugal owes $175 billion. And over the horizon lies Italy, which owes $2 trillion, and Spain, which is on the hook for $819 billion. Against these numbers, a $1 trillion fund doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence.

    Spain has kept its debt level low, 60 percent of GDP, thanks to the fiscal responsibility of the regime of President Aznar. But Italy has had no such prudence and now owes 115 percent of its GDP in debt, a percentage only slightly lower than in Greece.

    This run on the Club Med countries will continue, and the $1 trillion fund will not be enough to stop it.

    The key question is, how will Germany respond? Ever since the 1920s and 1930s, Germans have had a national consensus that unemployment is tolerable but that inflation is not. Having seen Hitler take power in the wake of the inflation of the Weimar Republic, Berlin does not look kindly on inflation. But an aggressive German effort to save Greece -- and certainly one to save Italy -- would run afoul of this long-held belief and would undermine confidence in Germany's ability to pay its debts.

    Berlin is caught between a rock and a hard place. If they prop up Greece, they undermine confidence in German solvency. If they don't, they undermine it in the euro. Either path will lead to inflation.

    Already, Germany's debt-to-GDP ratio is 77 percent (not quite Italy's 115 percent or Greece's 125, but getting up there). Last week, the cost of insuring $10 million of German government debt against default for five years rose to $47,000, as opposed to only $35,000 at the start of April. These insecurities are certain to rise the closer Germany gets to assuming Greece's debt.

    But if a Eurozone nation is allowed to default, inflation will certainly come as faith in the euro falls.

    The meaning for the United States, immediately, is that the export-driven recovery, stoked by improvements in Europe, is likely to fade and the dollar will strengthen, making U.S. exports less competitive.

    But the longer-term meaning is much more serious. Investors have gone from being nervous about small banks (the S&L crisis of the '80s) to being nervous about big banks to being nervous about non-bank financial institutions to being nervous about small countries.

    The next steps are obvious. The worry will spread to medium-sized countries like Italy and Britain and then to the biggest of all: the United States.

    Obama has left us vulnerable to these concerns with his huge and unnecessary budget deficit. With our debt now exceeding 80 percent of our GDP (it was 60 percent when Obama took office), we are hostage to speculators and nervous investors. In 2011, we may well experience the same kind of international jitters that now bedevil Greece and find our hand forced by an international consensus, just as Athens' has been.

    When Republicans stand against tax increases in 2011 and Democrats block spending cuts, the positions of both political parties might be irrelevant. Obama has so compromised our financial independence that the bond market might make the decision for us and jam both down our throats. Today, Athens. Tomorrow, Washington.

    The Obama deficit is a gift that keeps on giving!"
     
    #48     May 12, 2010