Let's put this fire out w/gasoline

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Cuddles, May 22, 2017.

  1. Cuddles

    Cuddles

     
    #31     May 25, 2017
  2. Tsing Tao

    Tsing Tao

    I respect your opinion, but let me give you some background on myself before I comment. I've lived for several years in Moscow. I dealt with the government there, have many Russian friends, speak Russian and even married a Russian. I'm extremely familiar with the culture. Again, this is only for background in context with my argument.

    I understand not liking dictators, but there is an expression in Russian: "Russians need a czar". They like rulers like Putin. As you said, he is immensely popular, but not because of the reasons you say. The weak spot in the Russian psyche is that they always want to be treated with respect. Once you realize this, you can get most of what you want from a Russian if you know how to use it.

    While they do not long to return to the Soviet times, they do miss the respect the world gave them in being the polar opposite to the United States. Because of the internet and social media, they are well aware of how backwards they are socially, technologically, etc from the United States. This only serves to drive more insecurity.

    The financial situation unfolded after Russia's invasion of Georgia not after Crimea. The ruble took a dive because of oil prices, not because of any sanctions. And Putin went after Crimea because of the US involvement in the Ukraine political theater, which was done because they were blocked in Syria from getting rid of Assad.

    Most of the meddling in both places had to do with the plans to supply natural gas through both countries to Europe in order to provide an alternative to Gazprom. Putin, of course, knew this. Additionally, a Saudi prince by the name of Bandar bin Sultan visited Moscow before the Sochi Olympics and - I'm paraphrasing to be brief - essentially told Putin through Medvedev that all of the problems Moscow has had with Chechen terrorists could "go away" and there would be "no risk" to the Sochi Olympics if Moscow would kindly back away from Assad. Moscow essentially told him to piss off. After that, the focus shifted to the Ukraine, and Putin took action on Crimea. I highly encourage you to read up on it. The image you're getting from Western media is significantly slanted and incorrect.

    As for the elections, there still is no proof on that. Saying something over and over again 1000 times doesn't make it any less false.

    I'm not saying there aren't reasons to distrust Russia or Putin. But come up with the right ones.
     
    #32     May 26, 2017
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  3. Cuddles

    Cuddles

  4. Cuddles

    Cuddles

  5. Tsing Tao

    Tsing Tao

    I've tried clicking on all of those links, but they're behind a paywall. Regardless, if you're attempting to provide more generic Russia links that regurgitate the same stale narrative and anonymous sources, it would be a waste of time anyway. That is, unless there is any proof at all in any of those links. If there is, please post the article in full (will not pay to read).
     
    #35     May 30, 2017
  6. piezoe

    piezoe

    If this is meant as a serious comment, please read more.
     
    #36     May 30, 2017
  7. piezoe

    piezoe

    Thank you for your informative and clearly stated viewpoint. It is essentially in agreement with what I already believed, based on my reading, to be the case, i.e, that the events you mention are related to provision of an alternative to Gazprom as a source of natural gas for Europe. Soros, at least 16 months ago, I think it was actually further back than that, warned of serious problems in the Russian economy, and of course a major factor is the collapse in oil price. I did not know about the Saudi attempt to influence Putin's support of Assad. That's very interesting.

    Re: "As for the elections, there still is no proof on that." Perhaps you are assuming that the U.S, intelligence agencies, which have been definite and direct in their statements, are lying . Apparently there is definite proof of Hacking by Russians in an attempt to influence the election. Or possibly you meant there is no proof of collusion with the Trump campaign. That is certainly true. All investigations have to do with looking for enough evidence to bring an indictment. Where there is smoke, there is fire. In the present case, the smoke is nearly overpowering. Blitzer's question to Feinstein Re collusion was premature.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
    #37     May 30, 2017
  8. Tsing Tao

    Tsing Tao

    You are correct, neither you nor I know what the supposed proof is. But here we are, half a year later and the accusations still fly, but no evidence has been shared anywhere of any wrong doing. Just more blustering media articles with anonymous sources that no one can question, nothing to review and more and more the media begins to resemble the Town Crier. So yes, I think the intelligence agencies are making shit up. What possible reason could they have for withholding evidence for this long, other than not having any evidence to share? It was the same with Obama before Trump was sworn in. Don't you think that, if Obama could have stopped Trump from being sworn in by showing proof of something...anything...he would have?

    And a question to you, Piezoe. At what point do you finally accept that there was no collusion, that no evidence of anything improper exists? Is it after a year? Two years? 8? When do you finally go "I guess it was a tempest in a teapot all along"?

    Or do you join the ranks of other conspiracy theorists, like the Obama birther movement and never give up your conspiracy, unwittingly joining the many tin-foil hat groups that you have despised for so long, just on the other side of the aisle?
     
    #38     May 30, 2017
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  9. piezoe

    piezoe

    Your estimate of how long an investigation should take is unrealistic. This is an investigation focused on more than one individual, proceeding down many interconnected paths and involving inquiries into both hacking and financial transactions, and it may evolve to encompass obstruction of justice as well. This is not a simple investigation where the only remaining question is whether a fireplace poker or other blunt instrument was used. Furthermore there are those who, on the face of it, seem to be active in attempts to slow or thwart the investigation. We have already two who are invoking their Fifth Amendment rights. And we have had a change in leadership of the FBI portion of the investigation. IMO it would not be unreasonable for such an investigation to take 18 months to two years.

    Ultimately the subjects will be indicted, impeached or exonerated. Naturally, before anything can be concluded, there will have to be time allotted for hearings sufficiently long for all senators and congressmen to grandstand on prime time, network TV. Who will fill deceased Senator Sam Ervin's role, I wonder, and after declaring that he is "just a country lawyer" will quote for us the requisite Bible verses. As in successful investing, great patience is needed!

    ___________________
    N.B. Among my many favorite Sam Ervin quotes are:

    The president seems to extend executive privilege way out past the atmosphere. What he says is executive privilege is nothing but executive poppycock.

    I'm just a country lawyer.
    (Ervin had an LLB from Harvard and a long and storied career as a clever lawyer, an Associate Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court, and as an exceedingly colorful U.S. Senator. He was instrumental in bringing down Joe McCarthy, and chaired the Senate Watergate Committee that brought down Richard Nixon.)
    [​IMG]
    Above is a picture of Ervin chairing the Watergate committee that I copied from Wiki. Those were days when the Congress was far more functional than it is today.


     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
    #39     May 30, 2017
  10. Tsing Tao

    Tsing Tao

    Great, so if there was suddenly an accusation that Obama was in collusion with Martians, we'd have to spend millions on the circuit and wait years to potentially find out if there was anything at all that we should have been concerned with. Meanwhile, the man would have been discredited on complete bullshit for all that time, and been hamstrung on doing his job.

    What a wonderful system. No flaws at all, and no opportunity to advance an obstructionist agenda.

    Thank God some of us like to wait until someone is actually proven to be guilty before passing judgment.
     
    #40     May 30, 2017