Larry Williams

Discussion in 'Trading' started by dbs119, May 9, 2004.

  1. dbs119

    dbs119

    Has anyone read this from traders-talk.com

    http://www.traders-talk.com/mb2/index.php?showtopic=12007&hl=larry+williams

    If that's true, i also do not think that larry williams words should be taken very very critically..

    I lost respect for Larry Williams,because he has some problems with citations..He likes presenting people that are alive as dead, and people that are dead, as alive..
    The first person that he presented as a person that "comitted suicide in 1983" was Frankie Joe..He says that on page 98 of his book " DayTrade Futures Online". Anyone with account at amazon, can check this page online..
    However, one can check Marty Schwartz book "Pitbull", where he descibes that he won a trading contest over Frankie Joe. And it is not just Schwartz words - i found two articles in WSJ about Frankie Joe..

    The Outlook: Is Inflation Dead? Don't Bet the Ranch
    By Alfred L. Malabre Jr.. Wall Street Journal (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Jan 21, 1985. p. 1

    Eleventh-Hour Killing Is Margin Of Victory in Commodities Match
    By Allanna Sullivan. Wall Street Journal (Eastern edition). New York, N.Y.: Jun 7, 1984. p. 1

    In the first one, Mr Joe is asked about his views on inflation, "The economy's going through a transition period from accelerating inflation . . . to disinflation and eventually deflation," says Frankie Joe, a private money manager who participated in Barron's recent panel on the 1985 outlook."

    The second one is about Schwartz winning over Frankie Joe, who had insights of a 86 year old.

    Well, there is a slight probability that Larry Williams and WSJ are reffering to different Frankie Joes..

    Ok, here comes another citation problem with his book "daytrade futures online" on page 99.
    He talks about "old man E.H. Harriman" who made a lotta money by analysing his clients trading accounts according to Williams. And,according to an interview with mr Harriman in 1912 he said that his secret to making money on the stock market is that he never let a stock run more than 3/4 of a point against him.
    So far so good.. I was inspired to learn more about mr Harriman, because i made some historical comparisons with the railroad boom of late 1890's and early 1900's wih the Internet Boom of 1990's and early 2000's .. So i went on amazon.com to look for books about mr Harriman.. And it was funny, when i saw on the cover of ne of his autobiographical books, that he lived from 1847 to 1909. And this was according to several books, that were printed well before Larry's latest book "daytrading futures online".
    Now , i simply do not believe him at all.. In my opinion ,even his tests or computer simulations of his strategies should be doubted .. Of course, his books hav nice little gems, so they should not be discarded at all.. But if one reads his works. Read Critically..
    Have a nice weekend!


    E.H. Harriman

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/s...harriman&store-name=books/103-3909284-2706220
     
  2. Frankie Joe is dead. But was it suicide? I have heard it was a heart attack. You get a lot of stress as a trader.
     
  3. Frankie Joe died of a heart attack; Marty Schwartz quit managing other people's money and changed his way of trading to a more easy style because his heart could not endure the heavy pressure of short-term trading.
    Such things give me the impression that short-term trading will damage a person's health. :(
     
  4. Yes, but Marty got his problems when he left his "lonely daytrader" style to become a fund manager.
     
  5. Vishnu

    Vishnu

    As full disclosure I have to say I'm biased because Larry wrote a blurb for the back cover of my recent book. That said I never had any interaction with him before that and I don't know him personally.

    I do think Larry needs to be given a lot of credit. I have no opinion on his tradnig contests, successes, failures, etc. although he does address many of the questions in his recent book.

    However, for anybody who wants ideas to test and then to trade then Larry's books are a great starting point, even the books that are 20 years old. My first system that I traded was the OOPS system, and many of the systems that I trade, or in the books of Connors, Crabel, Rashke, and on and on, are somewhat derivative of Larry's systems.

    Not to mention his daughter Michelle is an extreme cutie. Not just in Dawson's Creek but I really liked her in The Station Agent.
     
  6. Vishnu

    Vishnu

    Even though this is slightly off topic here and perhaps worthy of another thread: managing other people's money is 1000x more stressful than managing your own money.

    People sometimes write me and ask me for my track record as a fund manager so they can compare with their personal track records and see if they are up to snuff. Thats like comparing apples and oranges. If the clients are professionals, then its a pleasure:
    a. new friends
    b. people to help you build your business
    c. no hassles

    But the stress of succeeding and failing for others is a lot different from just managing your own money. In most cases, drawdowns are completely unacceptable, style drift is unacceptable, and even huge up moves in the equity curve are unacceptable (if you can make it, you can lose it). I've been fortunate to have some incredible clients but the lifestyle is 100% different than when I was just daytrading my own money. Maybe after I get my first 100M (knock on wood) I can go back to trading my own money.
     
  7. As stated by Vishnu, keep in mind that Hedge Funds have a much greater focus on capital preservation then most individual Traders. The focus of the trades must match the published strategy of the fund found in the offering documents. Most of the investors are using the fund to diversify their investments; so drifting from the "style" or focus is not acceptable.

    Many of the folks who I have met that formerly were traders, and now manage other people's money now regret the decision to go in this direction, because it in many ways hand-cuffs their ability to trade as they please.

    - Greg




     
  8. dbs119

    dbs119

    Guys,

    You are a little off topic. What i wanted to mention, is that mr Williams was off 2 dates in his book. First ,there could not be any interview with Mr. Harriman in 1912, since he died in 1909.
    Also Frankie Joe did not commit suicudein 1983, because he was mentioned in WSJ in 1984 and in 1985.
    I was astonished by this. Maybe, Larry is a good book writer.. You know, every trader has his ups and downs.. We know that in 1972-3 he made 1 mln playing commodities.. Then in 1987, he turnes again 10000 in 2,1 mln, only to lose half of them , but still end the year @ 1.1 mln..

    What happened with him in the other years? Did he make any money?
    The problem with trading contests, is that there are a lotta people ,who enter with part of their "marketing or advertising budget" and take huge risks,they wouldn't take if they were trading for a living for example..
    I admit ,that trading OPM is very stressful.

    "In the wake of the contest publicity, Stotler & Co., a Chicago commodity firm, raised $2.75 million for a new fund called the Larry Williams Financial Strategy Fund, set up in June 1988.

    But since then, things haven't gone so well for Mr. Williams. His performance in the fund has been nothing like his performance in the contest. And on top of that, even though he is a board member, the National Futures Association has accused him in a complaint of using "deceptive" disclosure documents and sales material in situations unrelated to the Larry Williams Financial Strategy Fund.

    The Larry Williams Financial Strategy Fund lost about 45% of its value in the last six months of 1988. So far this year, it has hardly budged. "

    This is a part of an article from WSJ, from may 31st 1989.

    Larry won the Robbins cup in 1987.. His daughter won in 1997.. I didn't know she was an actress.. Funny..

    http://www.robbins-trading.com/worldcup/futures/standings.asp
     

  9. agree with the overall gist of your post, however the documents can be worded anyway the manager sees fit--wording like ( and this is paraphrased )" manager can and does invest in mulitple markets utilizing discretionary strategies combined with the primary strategy outlined earler, if and when the manager sees opportunity" in our documents we always leave room for "outlier" strategies and methods---allowing for "style drift".

    tell o i said hi !

    best,

    surfer :)
     
  10. Hello:
    I have never met Mr. Williams. I like some of the written materials that I have read, and I think some of the strategies and ideas are interesting and in certain instances innovative. That said, I have come to the conclusion that many of the folks (including Mr. Williams) who write books and vend services to the retail trade are not really professionals. They are really promotors. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being a promotor unless you portray yourself as something else to gain authority, or entre to a market. In that case I think a promotor crosses the line and becomes a scam artist. To go one step further, I believe that looking closely at the trading records of these public figures, you will see that they often have erratic records, up one year down the next. That kind of performance is not the trademark of a professional. Why? Because it indicates that the person doing the trading doesn't have good risk management skills. Just one man's opinion. Best Regards, Steve46
     
    #10     May 9, 2004