cstfx, Do you currently work, manage or own this keystone group? While I completely agree with what you're saying about doing your research and not having to join a firm you don't like, I do have a problem with the fact that these particular set ups, NOT TALKING ABOUT KEYSTONE IN PARTICULAR, do not protect the trader. This is b/c unlike normally putting down a risk deposit, you don't have access to your money in the same way. For example, when you first open your account with one of these non registered shops, you DO NOT have the ability to take out money whenever you want. Paydays are usually some point in the first two weeks of the following month. Also, when you first start your account, your balance will be ZERO not the 5K which you put in. If you are gullable enough to believe that the training fee is not in fact your risk deposit then you are simply unaware of what's going on. The fact that an additional training fee (assuming that the people on this post are not lying about it) is implemented when drop below an amount of money less than or equal to your training fee should tell you what is really going on here. While I strongly disagree with the SEC's rules about needing a license to trade for yourself, I also disagree with firms go into the GREY AREA to escape what are for now the trading rules. You are however once again right in the fact that you should do enough research before putting up money anywhere to know what the real dynamics of the firm are, b/c the rules don't allow them to be straight forward. For instance, it is my understanding that keystone is a sub under Hold Bros and there is nothing wrong with that, almost every shop setup in this particular manner is just a large subgroup. The only thing I do have a problem with is that traders may be unaware of what the rules are and might be putting themselves in a weird position without knowing it. You can argue that they should do their own research, I believe that a firm has an equal responsibility to disclose exactly how their setup works. I'm sure that Keystone and most of the larger sub llc shops ARE INFACT SET UP IN A LEGAL MANNER and your money is more than likely to be safe. But there are many smaller shops out there where one trader's losses can cripple the overall firm and possibly wipe out some of your money, not purposely but at that point what difference does it make to you. I have seen start up firms get taken down by a trader being halted in a refco type deal where there is not chance to get out and the firm doesn't have sufficient funds to cover a huge loss, granted these were overnight positions but the other traders money was still gone and the firm declared bankruptcy leaving the traders not in the trade holding the bag. All I'm saying is do your research. I have never worked with Keystone or any of the new llc shops, but I do understand that Keystone in particular limits traders downside in the beginning which prevents these types of events from crippling them. If you do infact go the sub route then those are the types of firms you should make sure you associate yourself with. There are a few good ones out there so just make sure that's where you're searching. It might not be as exciting but atleast you'll have a fighting chance.
No, not even close. A quick search here would tell you where my money lies I don't know about that because Hold Brothers has their own proprietary platform, GreyBox, that they trade with and Keystone uses Sterling. Also, I am not aware of Hold Brothere allowing any non-licensed trading accounts since I do not believe they have retail (I could be wrong) The do your research part: I hate to continue to quote Don Bright for fear that you might think I am shilling him too, but he has always said do your due diligence - ask to see the financial of a firm BEFORE you give anyone your money, whether a licensed shop or not, to see if they are a viable firm, because bottom line no one is taking your money, you are freely giving it to them and you should be aware of what you are doing now and not cry later that someone misled you and "they never told me the interest rate on my house was going to go up!" idiot mantra-like crap starts spewing. If they are not forthcoming about their capitalization, then "next". Quick, how many go to the selected CFTC monthly reports on FCM's balance sheets to see how they are capitalized BEFORE you open an account? Would you blindly open an account with a 500k firm (min FCM required amts) or would you prefer one that has a few hundred million on account? There is a lot of misplaced info about these firms and I think some people should dial it back a bit. If someone has been gutted by one, then post it for the world to see. But don't start sentences about a firm with "I think..."
Another thing I forgot to say.... Too many people are concerned with why traders would waste their time teaching and not trading. And whether or not teachers are in fact good traders themselves. NONE OF THIS MATTERS. Bill Parcells wasn't a great football player but was an incredible coach and had a great ability to bring out other people's talent. I have known many traders that were GREAT in putting on trades but lacked the discipline to manage their money. Took size too big for their wallet, had big winners and didn't cash out, etc. However they knew how to make money, their ideas were correct and the only thing wrong was their discipline. These people would have and some did become incredible teachers b/c it's much easier to tell others to be disciplined or not risk to much than to do it yourself. Also, the reason traders who have a stake in these sub firms take the time to teach people is b/c it's a no lose situation. The worst case scenario is that you blow thru your account and they make commissions off of you. Think of it as a trade at negative 5k, even if it goes to zero you make some money and if it runs then you make alot of money for a long time. Same with traders, you either lose your money and leave or you're successful and both you and the firm ride the wave. Either way it's a win win for the firm with the only question being how big of a win. And only an idiot wouldn't take those odds. Just think of it this way, unless you're a great trader, not a guy that makes 100k a year, but really a monster, then why wouldn't you take the steady income without the risk of putting the large amount of money you would have to put in play to make that big score? The answer is that you would and that's what these shops are doing and you can't fault someone for taking the easy out or the quick certain trade, b/c that's exactly what going on here. Like any other company these guys are in business to make the most money they can with the least amount of risk and there's nothing wrong with that.
YOU SAY "But don't start sentences about a firm with "I think..."" Ending them with I could be wrong is equally as bad CBSX, I know for A FACT that they clear thru Hold. Sterling is a stand alone platform that only provides an execution platform which then reports your p and l to the clearing firm, in Keystone's case hold bros. And Hold Bros. does not take on unlicensed guys, but you should do a little research as well and you'll realize that the only people actually registered with Hold Bros. is Keystone, not the traders under them. As far as the clearing firm is concerned all of the unlicensed guys are just trading keystone money on a 1099 or similiar filing. They also have the required 25k per main account covered with Hold, so while it's in a grey area it's still above board. And even if I wasn't sure that hold clears them, why would anyone turn away volume based on the platform being used? Especially when the platform, sterling in this case, is a free agent? There are far too many people without sufficient knowledge claiming all types of non sense on these boards. Your intentions are good but don't pull quotes out of my posts and contradict them when you have no clue as to what the facts are and just guess that I'm wrong. Do your research as you tell others to do or you are just as bad as the people you despise on the boards. You might not have access to certain info b/c you probably haven't been around that long, but please refrain from calling me out when you have absolutely no clue about what is really going on.
Not true...IF you establish yourself as an LLC. Just interviewed with a new office opening up as a satellite. $10k deposit, Greybox platform, ESignal for $100/mo. Commish wasn't a great deal, nor was I impressed with Greybox...it's actually kind of scary...you never get confirmations about anything. Stop orders get cancelled without warning if you have IOC specified. Not a very intelligent platform. No checks and balances....you've got to be on your toes all of the time. There's enough pressure in managing your trades, you shouldn't have to worry about making stupid mistakes...that's what good software is all about.
I called them, they will waive the training fee if you can show them 6 months of profits - I didn't ask if you are required to have profit for every month or profit as a total. For those w/o the 25k to daytrade, I don't know if they would accept swing trade results. If their training is substantial, they may not be a total scam. Still, 5k is a lot to pay for an online program.
Training is substantial,but if you have some experience it will sink in pretty fast.But again, understanding the rules and the system and applying them in real time are two different things. Again, I'm new there but I am so far happy with the process. Wish you luck with whatever way you choose.