Do you even read my comments before you type a response? Because i've said many times now that there is no Constitutional Right to employment. When I speak of due process, I'm referring to the rights to assemble and freedom to exercise religion. These were removed without due process. Lets look at the ridiculousness of your other examples, shall we? Closing businesses at the location of a terrorist attack for the immediate short term isn't at all the same thing as mandating people stay home state wide because of a possible viral threat, and to do so for the foreseeable future. Not. At. All. Mandating a hurricane evacuation doesn't force people to leave. All it does is say "if you stay, emergency services aren't coming to get you if you need them." That's all. Look it up. The why is important. But we haven't gotten here yet. We're still on your original comment saying that people haven't been prevented from working. Many companies are hiring. That's how recessions work. All of these ridiculous comments insinuating that the government isn't imposing a mass restriction on the ability to make a living right now. If you would like to clarify those comments to mean something else, perhaps we can then get to the why. Again, before we can get here, and I'm happy to have this discussion if you want, you and I first have to come to an agreement on whether the government is restricting the people's right to work. You still haven't accepted this very, very obvious point. Instead you're trying to stubbornly go on to something else. I don't remember this particular post, but I am confident what I said. You want to know why? Because I hold to the same principles each and every time. If I'm wrong, I'll admit so. If you make a good point, I'll grant you it. If only you did the same. What I am sure I said regarding the homeless and voter ID is that if you don't have an ID, you shouldn't be allowed to vote. This is because only citizens can vote. If you cannot prove you are a citizen, you don't get to vote. Just like you can't drive without a driver's license. That isn't disenfranchising the homeless. Neither is being able to buy cold medicine without an ID or any number of two dozen other things requiring ID. But I'm not going to let you obfuscate further, so I won't continue replying on the homeless.
Lets start with this: The comment about companies hiring was to say that no one is preventing you from getting a job. If a job is there, you can take it. There are few jobs because the government has shut down many businesses. But this doesn't change the fact that you can work IF there is a job. This is different from other parts of the world where certain ethnicities are not allowed to work by law. That is clearly a denial of a right to work. You can clearly understand the difference between these two. Second, you clearly would acknowledge what Ocho said about preventing you from going to Church vs preventing you from being a practicing Christian. Freedom of assembly is curtailed all the time. You see this everyday. How is this blanket change any different? So what is the difference between Ground Zero and a pandemic in the philosophical world of "Rights" and "Due Process." What's the difference between OSHA shutting down a plant (without due process of a court filing, etc) due to potential safety issue? In both these your rights are violated unless you look at the WHY. In both cases the WHY is to prevent the injury or deaths of many people. No different than this pandemic. If you take the moral view that the Government has denied jobs by effectively eliminating them, then the homeless analogy definitely applies - as your proposal in that post (requiring home addresses) would cause this result. New York City has denied your right to hunt by not having any hunting areas in Manhattan. This idea that "my rights are being violated" obfuscates the real question: should the economy be shut down vs possibly 10,000s of thousands of lives. If you believe that the government should re-open on moral grounds then you should also believe that OSHA doesn't have the right to shut down businesses that are operating dangerously. You should also believe that denying a homeless person the right to vote if he can't provide an address would also be immoral. Obviously this would make it practically difficult to ensure non-citizens don't vote, but morality and practicality can't coexist when you take the extreme view of "Rights" that you have in this thread.
Absolutely there is a difference. But you're still ignoring the basic understanding of a lock down's impact. If you work as a waitress, you can't rightly find work anywhere because the government has ordered ALL eateries closed - indefinitely in some places. If you work in a nail salon, you're screwed. Own a gym? Done for. Because government. Not everyone has the ability to change professions on a dime or just "get a job" like you say. Freedom of Assembly is curtailed all the time? When? Going to Church (your example), taking of the Eucharist, praying at the Priest's sermon is one of the defining pillars of Christians! If you think otherwise you apparently aren't a practicing Christian. Again, just like the "you can find another job", its interesting seeing you dismiss this so easily: "You can still practice your religion!" The shutting down of one area of downtown because of an immediate and clear and present danger (a burning fire, an explosion) or the shutting of ONE plan because of a salmonella outbreak is absolutely different for two main reasons. I'm repeating myself over and over here in these posts, but a fire or explosion is a clear threat to your life. You can't rightly go to sit down for a cup of coffee when the building next door has a three alarm fire. Its also local. You can still go for a cup of coffee - just have to cross town. Its not the same thing as removing the option completely and closing everything. Not. At. All. What absolute random rubbish this is. If the government prevents you from working because it closed everything, then the government has suppressed your ability to work. Period. If the government requires you to get a form of ID to ensure you are who you claim to be, that isn't suppression. You could call it a hurdle at the worst, but it is a requirement you have to meet. Like having an alcohol license to sell alcohol. Like having a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle. Like passing the BAR to practice as a lawyer. Like having a series 7, or a CPA, or anyone of 1000s of other requirements in our society. Like making sure doctors go to Medical School. Sorry, that's an opinion and while it is a valid opinion, that's all it is. I'm not going to get into the why because you still cannot grasp the fundamentals of the argument. Happy to debate the why of what you feel is important and why you feel it is vs. what I feel and why I feel it. But we can't seem to agree on basic logic at this point. We're not discussing what you believe to be immoral or what I believe to be immoral, because that is - again - about the why. I've already answered this several times and you've brought no additional information to the argument.
Until you are willing to talk about the “why,” then all these examples are equivalent. They only differ in the “why.” You are saying “a waitress can’t find a job. she has a right to a job and the government has denied that right and that is wrong.” Without adding “because the government is trying to flatten a pandemics infection curve” or “because the government wants to oppress her” or “because the deep state wants to ruin Trump’s economy.” The world runs on the “why.”
What a load of horseshit. The world runs on "why". You coin that phrase just now? How convenient. This all began because you specifically stated the government was not restricting anyone's right to work. This was a blatantly false statement and you can't just go "yeah, maybe I shouldn't have said it that way." before going "but this is why they are doing it". I could agree with you on why they are doing it. You just can't bring yourself to say they are doing it!! So stubborn.
The curve is now flattened and declining is most every area. Why can't the waitress go back to work? Oh, now we must make sure it's safe, whatever the hell that means, nobody can give any real clarity on that. How convenient, we can extend the shutdown indefinitely if we keep moving the goalposts. Nothing politically driven in that thought process, nothing at all.
Health Young and middle-aged people, barely sick with covid-19, are dying from strokes Doctors sound alarm about patients in their 30s and 40s left debilitated or dead. Some didn’t even know they were infected. People walk around Times Square as screens are illuminated as part of the “Light It Blue” initiative to honor health care workers, during the outbreak of the coronavirus disease in New York City on April 23, 2020. (Eduardo Munoz/Reuters) By Ariana Eunjung Cha April 24, 2020 at 6:36 PM EDT Thomas Oxley wasn’t even on call the day he received the page to come to Mount Sinai Beth Israel Hospital in Manhattan. There weren’t enough doctors to treat all the emergency stroke patients, and he was needed in the operating room. The patient’s chart appeared unremarkable at first glance. He took no medications and had no history of chronic conditions. He had been feeling fine, hanging out at home during the lockdown like the rest of the country, when suddenly, he had trouble talking and moving the right side of his body. Imaging showed a large blockage on the left side of his head. Oxley gasped when he got to the patient’s age and covid-19 status: 44, positive. The man was among several recent stroke patients in their 30s to 40s who were all infected with the coronavirus. The median age for that type of severe stroke is 74. As Oxley, an interventional neurologist, began the procedure to remove the clot, he observed something he had never seen before. On the monitors, the brain typically shows up as a tangle of black squiggles — “like a can of spaghetti,” he said — that provide a map of blood vessels. A clot shows up as a blank spot. As he used a needlelike device to pull out the clot, he saw new clots forming in real-time around it. “This is crazy,” he remembers telling his boss. Sign up for our Coronavirus Updates newsletter to track the outbreak. All stories linked in the newsletter are free to access. Stroke surge Reports of strokes in the young and middle-aged — not just at Mount Sinai, but also in many other hospitals in communities hit hard by the novel coronavirus — are the latest twist in our evolving understanding of its connected disease, covid-19. Even as the virus has infected nearly 2.8 million people worldwide and killed about 195,000 as of Friday, its biological mechanisms continue to elude top scientific minds. Once thought to be a pathogen that primarily attacks the lungs, it has turned out to be a much more formidable foe — impacting nearly every major organ system in the body. Until recently, there was little hard data on strokes and covid-19. There was one report out of Wuhan, China, that showed that some hospitalized patients had experienced strokes, with many being seriously ill and elderly. But the linkage was considered more of “a clinical hunch by a lot of really smart people,” said Sherry H-Y Chou, a University of Pittsburgh Medical Center neurologist and critical care doctor. Now for the first time, three large U.S. medical centers are preparing to publish data on the stroke phenomenon. The numbers are small, only a few dozen per location, but they provide new insights into what the virus does to our bodies. Coronavirus destroys lungs. But doctors are finding its damage in kidneys, hearts and elsewhere. A stroke, which is a sudden interruption the blood supply, is a complex problem with numerous causes and presentations. It can be caused by heart problems, clogged arteries due to cholesterol, even substance abuse. Mini-strokes often don’t cause permanent damage and can resolve on their own within 24 hours. But bigger ones can be catastrophic. The analyses suggest coronavirus patients are mostly experiencing the deadliest type of stroke. Known as large vessel occlusions, or LVOs, they can obliterate large parts of the brain responsible for movement, speech and decision-making in one blow because they are in the main blood-supplying arteries. Many researchers suspect strokes in covid-19 patients may be a direct consequence of blood problems that are producing clots all over some people’s bodies. Clots that form on vessel walls fly upward. One that started in the calves might migrate to the lungs, causing a blockage called a pulmonary embolism that arrests breathing — a known cause of death in covid-19 patients. Clots in or near the heart might lead to a heart attack, another common cause of death. Anything above that would probably go to the brain, leading to a stroke. Robert Stevens, a critical care doctor at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, called strokes “one of the most dramatic manifestations” of the blood-clotting issues. “We’ve also taken care of patients in their 30s with stroke and covid, and this was extremely surprising,” he said. Many doctors expressed worry that as the New York City Fire Department was picking up four times as many people who died at home as normal during the peak of infection that some of the dead had suffered sudden strokes. The truth may never be known because few autopsies were conducted. Chou said one question is whether the clotting is because of a direct attack on the blood vessels, or a “a friendly-fire problem” caused by the patient’s immune response. “In your body’s attempt to fight off the virus, does the immune response end up hurting your brain?” she asked. Chou is hoping to answer such questions through a review of strokes and other neurological complications in thousands of covid-19 patients treated at 68 medical centers in 17 countries. Thomas Jefferson University Hospitals, which operates 14 medical centers in Philadelphia, and NYU Langone Health in New York City, found that 12 of their patients treated for large blood blockages in their brains during a three-week period had the virus. Forty percent were under 50, and they had few or no risk factors. Their paper is under review by a medical journal, said Pascal Jabbour, a neurosurgeon at Thomas Jefferson. Jabbour and his co-author Eytan Raz, an assistant professor of neuroradiology at NYU Langone, said that strokes in covid-19 patients challenge conventional thinking. “We are used to thinking of 60 as a young patient when it comes to large vessel occlusions,” Raz said of the deadliest strokes. “We have never seen so many in their 50s, 40s and late 30s.” Raz wondered whether they are seeing more young patients because they are more resistant than the elderly to the respiratory distress caused by covid-19: “So they survive the lung side, and in time develop other issues.” A mysterious blood-clotting complication is killing coronavirus patients Jabbour said many cases he has treated have unusual characteristics. Brain clots usually appear in the arteries, which carry blood away from the heart. But in covid-19 patients, he is also seeing them in the veins, which carry blood in the opposite direction and are trickier to treat. Some patients are also developing more than one large clot in their heads, which is highly unusual. “We’ll be treating a blood vessel and it will go fine, but then the patient will have a major stroke” because of a clot in another part of the brain, he said. The 33-year-old At Mount Sinai, the largest medical system in New York City, physician-researcher J Mocco said the number of patients coming in with large blood blockages in their brains doubled during the three weeks of the covid-19 surge to more than 32, even as the number of other emergencies fell. More than half of were covid-19 positive. It isn’t just the number of patients that was unusual. The first wave of the pandemic has hit the elderly and those with heart disease, diabetes, obesity or other preexisting conditions disproportionately. The covid-19 patients treated for stroke at Mount Sinai were younger and mostly without risk factors. On average, the covid-19 stroke patients were 15 years younger than stroke patients without the virus. “These are people among the least likely statistically to have a stroke,” Mocco said. Mocco, who has spent his career studying strokes and how to treat them, said he was “completely shocked” by the analysis. He noted the link between covid-19 and stroke “is one of the clearest and most profound correlations I’ve come across.” “This is much too powerful of a signal to be chance or happenstance,” he said. In a letter to be published in the New England Journal of Medicine next week, the Mount Sinai team details five case studies of young patients who had strokes at home from March 23 to April 7. They make for difficult reading: The victims’ ages are 33, 37, 39, 44 and 49, and they were all home when they began to experience sudden symptoms, including slurred speech, confusion, drooping on one side of the face and a dead feeling in one arm. One died, two are still hospitalized, one was released to rehabilitation, and one was released home to the care of his brother. Only one of the five, a 33-year-old woman, is able to speak. Oxley, the interventional neurologist, said one striking aspect of the cases is how long many waited before seeking emergency care. The 33-year-old woman was previously healthy but had a cough and headache for about a week. Over the course of 28 hours, she noticed her speech was slurred and that she was going numb and weak on her left side but, the researchers wrote, “delayed seeking emergency care due to fear of the covid-19 outbreak.” It turned out she was already infected. By the time she arrived at the hospital, a CT scan showed she had two clots in her brain and patchy “ground glass” in her lungs — the opacity in CT scans that is a hallmark of covid-19 infection. She was given two different types of therapy to try to break up the clots and by Day 10, she was well enough to be discharged. Oxley said the most important thing for people to understand is that large strokes are very treatable. Doctors are often able to reopen blocked blood vessels through techniques such as pulling out clots or inserting stents. But it has to be done quickly, ideally within six hours, but no longer than 24 hours: “The message we are trying to get out is if you have symptoms of stroke, you need to call the ambulance urgently. ” As for the 44-year-old man Oxley was treating, doctors were able to remove the large clot that day in late March, but the patient is still struggling. As of this week, a little over a month after he arrived in the emergency room, he is still hospitalized.
I know from my hospice work that abnormal clotting is a big problem with cancer patients but also with benign tumours sometimes. The usual treatments can cause brain bleeds or move clots, cancer patients (nonsmall cell etc) need to be next to intensive care for safety Cancer causing viruses are called oncoviruses, but they were originally called oncornaviruses due to their typically RNA virus type (like corona). Not all are, I think HPV is DNA. The unusual ability to cause lumpy damage in kidneys and testicle tissue is concerning. Remember there are several viruses that cause cancer. This is not a virus to take so casually. It seems very likely there will be secondary issues for many down the line. I absolutely want to avoid this until more info or a vaccine.