We already went over this. Basically.... man agreed among men, that lying and stealing is generally a "bad" thing because it detracts from the advantages of living in a society. It's that simple. Long long ago.... men who lived together got really sick and tired of busting their ass all day long to build/earn something, and then have their neighbor immediately come over and just steal it. This causes massive problems in a society and removes societies advantages. It is a simple logical step to simply agree among one another that we won't steal each others stuff. That way we can focus on building new property without having to spend tons of time and effort defending it after the fact. If everyone follows this simple rule, then we are all more productive and therefore we ALL benefit by following this simple MAN imposed rule. In a nutshell, that is why stealing is wrong. Because, in the end, it is harmful to YOURSELF, by creating a society where everyone will steal from everyone else and cause chaos. Why is lying bad? Same reason... in the end, it is harmful to individuals, including yourself. Societies seem to fall an evolutionary path as well. Imagine living in a society where it was moral/OK to lie and steal constantly, from anyone. What would happen? Everyone would get screwed, constantly. Stress would be intense. You couldn't work because you would be at home each day defending your property. Would you live in a society like that? Of course not. Chances are, you would move away and live alone or find another society that acknowledges property rights. More and more people would do this, until the society crumbled from a lack of people partaking in it. The societies with "fair" laws which create the most advantages for individuals will attract the most people. Societies with poorly defined rules which do not protect individual "rights" which it defines, will crumble from lack of participation or revolt. peace axeman
Im being a little facetious in my answers and totally agree and understand with everything you said however, I believe these laws were given to man to live with...we didn't;t just create them ourselves in my opinion...otherwise we would just be animals and eat eachother and live like nomads
axeman - You are almost exactly right or at least as far as you went. I have lived among those cultures that you describe and they are a form of hell to live in. Those people, however, believed and reasoned that what they were doing was best and suited their circumstances all by their human logic. There needs to be a "ruler" or standard to compare things to and this is where we may have to agree to disagree. If you look at the world the places that are the free-est and most prosperous and respect property and individual rights the most have mostly had a christian influence in their history.
I think we DID just create them, for the simple reasons I posed. It's a natural step...actually, seems quite obvious to me. It's extremely advantages to us. We create these laws for ourselves for the same reason we hunt down an animal an wear it's fur coat to stay warm. It helps US survive. We have no evidence that these laws were "given" to us. Yet, we have a lot of evidence that man created these laws through his use of reason throughout history. "...otherwise we would just be animals and eat eachother and live like nomads " This is precisely what seperates us from animals. We have the faculty of reason, which is precisely WHY we dont just eat eachother and live like nomads. We have the ability to understand the advantages of NOT being like this. One more thing... even though your were being facetious, your example of the BIG powerful guy is interesting. Note that even a large powerful man, has FAR FAR more to gain by living in a modern society like ours, than living in a chaotic state where he steals and bullies smaller weaker men in a primitive unorganized society. ( The only kind of society that would allow this kind of behavior) In a modern society, size doesn't matter The "group" will jail the large and powerful man, and suddenly he isn't so powerful anymore. If you read over all your facetious replies, and ask yourself: What would happen if EVERYONE acted this way, it becomes quite obvious why this behavior is actually NOT advantageous to the individual. peace axeman
I believe this "ruler" or standard to compare societies should be human reason. Is it so hard to look at iraqi society, compared to ours, and logically conclude that our set of man created rules are superior?? As for christian influence.... is this a historical coincidence or correlation? What about the crusades? The dark ages? The inquisition? The witch burnings? It seems that christianity is also correlated with bloodshed, and property rights violations to a great degree. Therefore, although I will admit a christian influence, merely by sheer numbers, I will not admit this was necessarily a good thing. The greeks did NOT start out christian, and are the basis of our modern society. They were later infiltrated by the christians and fell apart....hmmmmmmmm Our very own government, was explicitly designed to NOT allow any belief system to rule over all, including christianity. When the founding fathers said the following, I think they made it quite clear what they thought of christianity and government: Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states: âThe government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.â From a letter to Thomas Jefferson: âI almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved â the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!â Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments: âReligious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.â -James Madison From The Age of Reason: âAll natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.â - Thomas Paine. Like our founders... when it comes to measuring what is right or wrong, I will stick to my faculty of reason. peace axeman
...but in your assumptions you say we are different then animals....why? don't look at man toady...look at prehistoric man....how did they know that all these things were wrong? certainly, even today there are people that have a hard time understanding this, but i still have not heard why we cannot li or cheat or even steal...You keep saying its for the benefit of the whole society but im not seeing how it is...the mongols ruled for quite some time taking what they wanted from everybody...for every reason you give as to why stealing is bad for one society there is the other side inwhich it was good for another...the mongols the romans ect...they took...they stole.
"but in your assumptions you say we are different then animals....why?" Not an assumption. We are different from animals in the degree of our ability to reason and conceptualize. "don't look at man toady...look at prehistoric man....how did they know that all these things were wrong? " Did they? Real prehistoric man, may not have had enough language to even allow the possibility of lying. As for stealing... did they know it was wrong??? " certainly, even today there are people that have a hard time understanding this, but i still have not heard why we cannot li or cheat or even steal...You keep saying its for the benefit of the whole society but im not seeing how it is.." I've already explained because doing so will break down the social order and rob you of societies advantages. "...the mongols ruled for quite some time taking what they wanted from everybody...for every reason you give as to why stealing is bad for one society there is the other side inwhich it was good for another...the mongols the romans ect...they took...they stole. " Ahhh ok... now I see where you are coming from. This is quite a bit different. I have only been responding within the context of man and society. Now you are discussing society VERSUS society. I hope it is at least obvious why man should not steal/lie WITHIN HIS OWN SOCIETY. As for the mongols and romans.... yes.. it is arguable that it was advantageous for their SOCIETY to rob/steal from OTHER SOCIETIES. ( At least in the short run...just like the criminal who steals from his neighbor and doesn't get caught immediately) But.... didn't the mongols and romans eventually fall? Didn't the germans/hitler get DEFEATED when the "other societies" got tired of their stealing and banned together to destroy him? The same dynamics exists on a society level. I think it's arguable that a society which plunders and attacks other societies has it's days numbered for the same reason an individual criminal WITHIN a society has his days numbered. Of course...there are always exceptions. Some criminals die rich But this is generally not true. peace axeman
As for christian influence.... is this a historical coincidence or correlation? axeman ___________________________________________ Whichever, it is still there today. _____________________________________ What about the crusades? The dark ages? The inquisition? The witch burnings? axeman _______________________________ Done in the "name" of christianity. Even so I am sure there atrocicities on both sides. We have already done the dual quote. I still say there has been a christian influence in the founding and history of the USA. The knowledge of that certainly made all of the founders fear a state religion of any kind because men are still going to be involved. My problem with the human reason is working in so many varied cultures and then seeing what they come up with as their answer to justice without a standard and I believe in our mix we have the best.
mongols and romans lasted a lot longer then any other empires....My point is and remains that man did not just create these rules on his own....I believe they were given to him by God...Obviously you and doubter feel differently.
Obviously you and doubter feel differently. TM _____________________________________ TM Sorry I mislead you. I too feel very strongly that these rules or standards came from God. Two ways 1. via the commands and the scriptures and 2. imparted somewhat as "eternity in their hearts."