Jordan = Palestine

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by 377OHMS, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. 377OHMS

    377OHMS

  2. You're right about the Palestinian identity being fairly new, but it's not as new as you claim; it has been around for at least a hundred years. It was a rather weak identity in the early 20th century, most people back then used to identify with their village or town rather than a modern day type of nation. After the creation of the state of Israel, this identity was strengthened however, and today it encompasses those people who were living in the parts of Mandate Palestine which was ass fucked by the creation of this new state. Mostly Muslims, but also a lot of Christians and some Jews identify with this nationality. That's a national identity as good as any, and it won't go away without exterminating those who identify with it.

    You've misunderstood the whole situation. Canaanites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Israelites, Samaritans, Arabs, Crusaders, Ottomans, etc. - the people of the southern Levant are a mixture of all these peoples. The question is not what to call the land or the people, it doesn't matter what combination of letters you use to describe them. To put it in the simplest terms, certain people were living in the southern Levant, they were forced out and now they are not allowed to live there any longer. For the average Palestinian, that is what the conflict is about. Nationalism, Religion, ethnicity, etc. is just politics and background noise.
     
  3. 377OHMS

    377OHMS

    Wow. Out of the shadows steps a cultured man. Impressive.

    Disagree with your outlook but appreciate your knowledge.
     
  4. Actually, they weren't "forced out". They ran away during a war in which they attacked Israel. They ran thinking that they'd return on the backs of other arab armies. They didn't. They lost the war. Now, the children of those who attacked, lost the war, now want to come back. Unfortunately these armies didn't come back and reclaim the lands. In fact, these nations disowned the people! They were Jordanians, and overnight became "Palestinians".

    Before the 1960s, any time you used the term "Palestinian", you were talking about Jews.

    That's what happened. Facts are a bitch aren't they?? Also you have claimed previously that the issue was this supposed mass genocide which is being carried out on these people. NOW you are claiming is that these people can't return back to their previous homes... Which is it? Make up your mind...

     
  5. true. I wonder how much land for peace the Arab/Muslim nations expect to give up. How about imploding the Dome of the Rock and giving it back to the Hebrews to rebuild their temple. That would do a lot for world peace :cool:
     
  6. Yeah, well don't hold your breath... That last "land for peace" deal that was struck ( unilateral withdrawal from Gaza) didn't seem to work so well. They agreed to peace, then proceeded to shower S Israel with 5000 kassam rockets at civilian targets. Maybe the arabic word for "peace" is very similar to or interchangeable with the arabic word for "5000 rockets"?

    It's so predictable with these people... They go with the Palestinian genocide myth, until it's debunked. Then, they switch to the "can't return to their homes" myth. It eventually gets debunked, then they go back to the genocide myth... rense repeat.

    The fact is that much of the "Palestinian" land is occupied by immigrants from other arab countries. If it's such a genocidal death camp (which ironically recieves more foreign aid than any other nation) then why do foreigners keep moving there?

     
  7. They <i>have</i> made up their minds. In their minds the palestinian identity include arabs (exactly the same arabs that live in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan) but does not include jews who have lived there for 2000+ years. Quadrupling of the [arab] population in 60 years is genocide. People who were not born and never set foot in a country they don't believe should even exist are refugees. Betraying your country and siding with the enemy, leaving your land to come back when your state is destroyed by its enemies makes you eligible for the right of return...Oh well, how can you possibly argue with their impeccable logic? :confused:
     
  8. First Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion begs to differ.

    "There is a reason to believe that what is being done . . . is being done out of certain political objectives and not only out of military necessities, as they claim sometimes. In fact, the transfer of the Arabs from the boundaries of the Jewish state is being implemented . . . the evacuation/clearing out of Arab villages is not always done out of military necessity. The complete destruction of the villages is not always done only because there are no sufficient forces to maintain a garrison." (Benny Morris, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 181)

    Yosef Weitz, director of the Land and Afforestation Department of the Jewish National Fund also disagrees:

    "[...] question of evacuating/clearing out the [Palestinian] Arabs. ...[ten days later] [we] must direct our war towards the removal of as many Arabs as possible from boundaries of out state. The guarding of their property after their removal is a secondary question. Finally it was agreed that I would submit a proposal for [Arab] removal from localities based on my considerations." (Benny Morris, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 186)"

    "...the transfer of [Palestinian] Arab population from the area of the Jewish state does not serve only one aim--to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second, no less important, aim which is to advocate land presently held and cultivated by the Arabs and thus to release it for Jewish inhabitants." (Benny Morris, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 94-95)

    "The creation of the Hebrew State in part of the country [Eretz Yisrael] is the beginning of complete redemption. ....How should we solve the question of the Arabs who constitute half of the state population? ..... I have been working day and night in these days on the calculation of the land in the Hebrew state ..... Indeed we still need to redeem much until most of the cultivated land will be our property." (Benny Morris, Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 182)

    So does Moshe Dayan, the fourth chief of staff of the IDF (and also defence minister and foreign minister):

    "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

    "[houses were destroyed] not in battle, but as punishment [...] and in order to chase away the inhabitants [...] contrary to government policy." (Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 328)

    These quotes are accurate, I've checked and rechecked them several times, no one denies their authenticity.

    Back in the first half of the 20th century, the conquest of land was perceived as an achievement, and the conquest of the southern Levant was a source of pride for the creators of the State of Israel. And who can blame them, it was a time when the mentality of colonialism was still widespread amongst world leaders. In the late sixties and early seventies however, leaders of Israel started to realize that the story had to change, that what they had done would not be so popular in the new world of hippies, civil rights activism, ethnic equality, etc. So the story changed: the land was no longer conquered, it had been empty, waiting for the arrival of the Jews. The entire history and identity of the original population was attempted to be deleted. Golda Meir made here famous quote:

    "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
    (Mrs. Golda Meir. Statement to "The Sunday Times", 15 June, 1969.)


    It is this new public relations policy that's being echoed when Mr. pheromone says "The fact is that much of the "Palestinian" land is occupied by immigrants from other Arab countries." He says this in spite of the fact that Ottoman and British population counts show that there was indeed a substantial population living in the land way before Jews arrived, and that it, together with the birthrate of this population shows that there was, if any, very little immigration from other Arab countries during this period. There's also genetic evidence as well as cultural, historic and linguistic references to document and confirm that the population did indeed exist. Sources may be provided if needed.

    This attempt to change history by Israel failed miserably and backfired, the result was the strengthening of the modern Palestinian national identity.

    That's only partially accurate. In Europe it was indeed the case that when speaking about Jews living in the area, one called them "Palestinians". However, that was not the only use of the word. This issue is so basic that I will simply refer you to some Wikipedia articles:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinian_people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_nationalism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestinian_nationality

    Facts are never a bitch, if you have any, please come forth with them. It would be wise of you to try and document them though, as the "facts" you've presented so far are mostly fiction from the books of Joan Peters, Alan Dershowitz and Efraim Karsh. And you don't even bother to use the fallacious documentation they provided, which I'd sure like to debunk.

    You might be mistaking me for someone else, I don't recall having said anything about mass genocide. I don't even recall having conversed with you previously. If you're referring to the massacres mentioned by Israeli leaders prior to the change in PR policy by Golda Meir, I'd be happy to document that for you. But I sincerely believe that is a can of worms you do not want to open, as you're here mainly to protect and defend the name of Israel, and not to talk about truth and reality.
     
  9. I wish I could say the same for those whose outlook you do agree with. Phemoneron, a_person and the likes are nothing but lawyers; knowing full and well how factually inaccurate their claims are, they still make them for the sake of conducting the case for Israel.
     
  10. No someone with a lawyer mentality would do something like make a personal attack against someone because they disagree with them...

     
    #10     Jun 22, 2010