My experience was exactly the opposite. I made money hand over fist my first seven months. It ruined me for years to come as I thought that was the way trading was all the time. I learned nothing during that first year. That was 1999-2000 and it's been a struggle ever since. You've probably learned more in those 7 months than I have in 7 years. Why? Because it took years to un-learn all my goofy ideas. You'll be OK in the long run. Keep at it!
---- I trade in 100 -110 share lots, and I trade through Scottrade. YEA I know, people have told me to switch to IB but there are many reasons outside the topic of this post. I pay a 14 dollar commission round trip. You probably think I'm crazy day trading with scottrade because of the coms, I dont get l2, t&s, streaming news, I dont get future quotes like the s&p. Turning a profit this way has been difficult to say the least. I go "all in" pretty much on every trade! . I know this is bad money management but I dont have much choice because I trade the most expensive stocks I can afford. STLD has been the most expensive so far. When I first opened my account with 1000, I was buying like 20 shares of appl..WHAT A JOKE. 100 shares is bare bones imo. As far as the PTD rule goes, I CAN DAY TRADE, but I ONLY get 4 day trades a week. I can buy one day, and sell the next as many times as I want. After 4 day trades, overnight holds are the only thing I'm allowed to do. --- I'm gonna take some heat..so here it goes. Yes I know why I'm not profitable. 1. I dont use fibs or pivots for s/r. I'm trying desperately to understand s/r zones...but where do you draw the lines for the zones?..Some times I can look at a chart and instantly get a feel for where s/r is, but on stocks that have just gaped or in strong trends..i have no freakin idea where s/r is and this is a BIG problem, because I ONLY pay attention to stocks that are BIG MOVERS 2. I'm undercapitalized. Even swing trading off 3k is hard. I have to go "All in" just to afford my 100 shares, then I have no money to pyramid, AND when a stock goes against me, I get screwed all at once because I bought all at once. 3. I'm inpatient. This is what's been leading me to day trade when i dont have the proper amt of money, or the tools..I'm surprised I'm still in the game. I guess its because I'm not greedy, and tend to leave money on the table. I'm also getting caught in the momentum trading arena. 4. I'm constantly changing my time frame. I'll look on a daily chart, and the stock is nearing its down trend, and I'm like..SWEET, time to buy this sucker at a cheap price, right?..well then I look at the 60 minute chart, and the thing just made new highs and looks like its going to reverse ANY minute now. What do I do? 5. The world. Another reason I day trade is because it just seems to me that there are so many things that could make a stock gap down 5 points the next day and I'm totally out of control of these factors. This is why I like day trading. On the otherhand, swing trading is more easy going. There is just so much uncertainty in the world. I do have a journal. http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72609&highlight=the+adventures - Nathan
cashmoney, I agree with Triple X. If you are only trading 100 lots, then you are throwing your money away by being at Scottrade. You should look for a per share commission plan. Even if you end up paying 1 cent per share, which is a high per share commission rate, you will be saving $12 ever round trip trade you place. You said you average a loss of $26.17 each month. That means just with the commission savings, you would have averaged out positive every month. Also, I would recommend you find a good prop or pro firm. You won't be subject to the PDT rule and can probably get at least 10 to 1 leverage if not way more. Some of the shops will have experienced traders that you can learn from, as well. Good Luck Johnny Utah
I agree with Triple. Scottrade is killing you. Saving $60/wk is $420 putting you into the green. At this stage don't worry about percentages because your account is too small. Whether you are up or down a grand at this point doesn't really matter. You are doing fine, now it's time to get more serious. If you REALLY want to make it as a daytrader and don't have any outs for more capital I strongly suggest going prop like Assent, Bright, Evo etc. Scrape together $5k and all your undercapitalizatoin worries are over. I'm currently on my 8th consecutive profitable year but if I had to trade retail I would be up sh*t creek. Trading is hard enough...step it up and give yourself a real chance. Unfortunately one of the most important things to learn in your first 6 months is execution which Scottrade has robbed you of. There's a lot more to this game than a Buy and Sell button. ECN's are consoidating but you still need to know all your execution possibilities. Once you get a real trading account focus on this for a while.
The reason 90% of all business ventures fail is lack of capitalization. It is more relevant in the trading arena. It takes capital to trade the strategies that actually work (opening only, making markets, pairs, mergers, etc.)...trying to buy a 100 shares with a retail account is just not practical...and you can't even short stock (because your retail firm keeps all the short stock interest).... If you're enjoying this as a hobby, think of it as entertainment, much like the people who bring $3000 to Vegas for a weekend of gambling...don't think of this as a "failure" much more like a "couldn't happen anyway, and I'm just having fun" type of thing. Save your money, get some training about the strategies that actually work from those who trade for a living....and then go forward. FWIW, Don
I sensed your post was well-intentioned underneath, but on the surface it just smacked of smugness and lack of empathy for your fellow trader. I don't know of very many traders who were profitable since their first day trading -- if that was your case then god bless you. But for the rest of us, there is a learning curve that, if worth anything, will cost us a measure of tuition. Whether it's worth it or not for him to continue all depends on how much he is actually learning from these losses.
I've noticed over time that you are someone with low self-esteem who gains that very specific pleasure that comes from identifying people who are losing money and exploiting their insecurity. This will also be obvious to anyone else who reads your posts.
Cash, Be proud that you have the guts to post your truth on this board and get feedback, hopefully mostly positive. A few years back I started position trading futures. I lost 6 k, then funded another account with 20k, made 65k at one point, gold went against me and closed at 29k. I took that 29k and shorted crude and got my ass handed too me. I finished -6k. This was when I was working full time making good money in sales. Last year, with the support of my wife, whom pay our bills, I quit my job and made a full time go at day trading index futures and currencies. I have been tradin live money about 5 months. I started with 5k, to get the hang of it, and I am down $300 after commish. I got some training, hired a mentor, and received some free training from another friend/mentor. I have realized what my problem is and now taking corrective action. I see the setup, hesitate sometimes, sometimes not and get up $50-100 a day and stop because I am afraid of losing. That is because I have a couple of winners and then get whacked and I am negative because my R to R is unbalanced. My point being is you need to constantly be asking yourself why are you taking this trade or not taking this trade. You need to type up a trading/business plan and stick to it or stop. Last week I almost revenge traded, but did a reality check and shut down and left before I did something stupid. How are you emotions? Find a time frame and stick to it. I spend last night reading all of the post by the Super_Ego and got some good confirming ideas I already knew something about. They are summarized here is the link if you are interested http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6881&highlight=SUPEREGO I am honestly questioning if I can day trade futures or should I consider swing or position trading futures or stocks. It takes alot of discipline to pull the trigger multiple times a day. It is even harder to keep pulling the trigger after you are down a few hundered for that day. My friend whom has been full time trading for 2 years told me this. When he first started he went -10k before he trade to break even. From there it took a few more months to make money, first $50 a day, $100 day, now he can make $200 day easy, maybe not in the summertime right now though . This is an evolution, it will not happen overnight so don't beat yourself up. I think the keys to trading success are mainly fourfold, but chime in folks if I miss something or disagree. 1. Find something that works for you and be consistent. simpler is usually better. 2. Test it very rigoursly. Back and forward test. Take notes during the day. How far did it move etc.. 3. Spend and invest in whatever helps you get your mind in the zone to trade. I myself and going use some NLP subconscious programming tapes. There are good book on trading psych... Douglas Kiev etc. Think what you want they have worked for me. 4. Have a written trading plan and follow it to the letter. I had a written trading plan, it wasn't working, found some new techniques, starting making money, didn't re-write the plan and pretty soon starting taking trades that weren't on plan. I started losing more money. Why because I no longer had a plan I had committed to follow. I was all over the board and frankly Nathan you seem to suffer from a similar dilemma. Ok enough of my rambling. Thanks for starting this thread it forced me to reveal my weakness to a sometimes hostile board. I hope something I said help you or someone else. Dan