i have a guru, an indian monk. he teaches meditation. i think that the point of all his teachings is that you have to bring the constant stream of thoughts to a hold to realise how things really are. and at this point the distinction between heaven and everything else becomes meaningless. i really think it is like that. not only does the distinction become meaningless, the distinction itself vanishes. my guru uses the comparison of life and a movie. you sit in there and you suffer a great deal with the trouble you see on the screen, but at the same time you enjoy it. you enjoy going to a movie and experience all this pain and tears and happiness. now, is a movie hell? or heaven? no, it is a movie, just a movie.
this one on how the catholic church betrays itself. the catholic concept of god is "omnipotent and omnipresent". now that means (s)he is present at all times in every place in the same intensity. if this were not so and there was a place or a time where there was less of her/him, the concept of omnipresence and omnipotence collapses, vanishes. give it a thought. if god is not only merely a kind of superhuman hero, like clark kent, it must be like that. so ... how can there be hell then? thing is, hell is a human concept. and in my eyes a very useful if you want to control people. which is what IMHO the catholic church, at least its leadership, is about.
Thanks for this contribution. This is very much how the predicaments of man are made up. Allow me to expand on this theme. Perception stands between God and His creations, or between His children and their own. This is the "movie screen" interposed by the Son of God to see himself as something other that what he is. When perception is removed, you "know"...and you know you are eternal, that you were created and are a co-creator, and that creation must continue forever. What is perceived is not creation...such is "man". Those who believe they are apart from God have replaced knowledge with a kind of movie screen or mirror, upon which thoughts pass by. Many and conflicted, they are sorted and classified according to more important, larger or better, wiser, or more productive and valuable than others. Some are reflections of Heaven, while others are motivated by the ego, which but seems to think. The result is a weaving, changing pattern that never rests and is never still. It shifts unceasingly across the mirror of your mind, and the reflections of Heaven last but a moment and grow dim, as darkness blots them out. Where there was light, darkness removes it in an instant, and alternating patterns of light and darkness sweep constantly across your mind. The little sanity that remains is held together by a sense of order that you establish. Yet the very fact that you can do this, and bring any order into chaos shows you that you are not an ego, and that more than an ego must be in you. For the ego is chaos, and if it were all of you, no order at all would be possible. Yet, though the order you impose upon your mind limits the ego, it also limits you. To order is to judge, and to arrange by judgement. Therefore it is not your function, but the Holy Spirit's. Through the selection - judgement - process, one's perceived world is "learned". It must be "unlearned" to return to knowledge. The Holy Spirit teaches the unlearning of the world through miracles done through you, to teach you that you do not need to make meaningless comparisons and judgements about the thoughts that appear on the movies screen of your mind. This is how perception is brought to an end. There is no order of difficulty in miracles. This compares to perception, in which everything is laced with an order of difficulty. The Holy Spirit judges in only two ways: It is love, or it is a call for love. If it is a call for love, a miracle is the response. No matter how big or small the call, the response is the same...to show that there is no "big" or "small" or "more difficult" or "less difficult". Those are all judgements that keep the movie going. To select means also to reject other possibilities. Rejection maintains a sense of guilt. So judgment maintains a sense of guilt, which keeps the movie going. Guilt literally maintains the illusion of time. Without it, the body would disappear, because there is never any guilt now. So the body is a time machine, existing in past, or in anticipation of future. Only guilt can maintain this effect. The gurus have discovered that there is merit to slowing down the thoughts that run across the screen of the mind, coming to a place of no-thought...which is really a place of no judgement, no comparison, no selection process, etc. What I teach is a way maintain the mindset of non-judgement "24/7" so-to-speak...until time is inconsequential. At that point, you are in a state of "grace" which seems to exist within time, but is not subject to time at all...but rather the eternal. This is what it means to be "in the world but not of the world". This is the normal state of your mind, before perception is interposed. Jesus
jem - Have you stopped to consider that an angel arrested Abraham's attempt to sacrifice...and that this is the lesson it would teach you? And would it not be just as easy to exchange your opinion of my crucifixion from one of sacrifice to some other lesson that you are not yet aware of? What causes you to see a need for sacrifice, and why does that color everything you see? Jesus
Yes, there is no such thing as vindicative justice in God's thought system. There is justice, but it it opposite of what man thinks. God blesses. When there is no reception, he blesses more. The Holy Spirit is the "more" that he blessed the prodigal Son on his wayward way. This kind of justice brings the Son home, rather than condemns him. When it is understood that separation itself is nothing more than symbolism, hell will be healed and forgotten. Guilt is the mechanism that keeps hell in your experience. An innocent mind cannot suffer. But a guilty mind will require time. It locks you in a linear mode of time because it needs the "past" where deeds are "done". It also needs future foreboding inevitable punishment for deeds done. To hold out a future hell for past offenses is the equivalent of strengthening the chains that bind you to hell in the first place. The truth is time is not at all linear, and you are not guilty. This is enough to set you free if you would accept it. That all depends on your motives. I have said that hell is a place where there is "gnashing of teeth" and where the "worm does not die". This is a reference to all things physical, all form, and all bodies. Thus, to play such a game with guilt is to keep the game going. Jesus
Yes, the experience of hell is to be out of the mind that is Heaven. Outside of Heaven is hell. It is that part of one mind that dreams of separation from the rest of the mind. This is impossibly insane, so those in hell are out of their minds. Innocence is not a partial attribute. It is not real until it is total. The partly innocent are apt to be quite foolish at times. It is not until their innocence becomes a viewpoint with universal application that it becomes wisdom. You cannot dispel guilt by making it real, and then atoning for it. This is the ego's plan, which it offers instead of dispelling it. The ego believes in atonment through attack, being fully committed to the insane notion that attack is salvation. It is the ego that turns a seeming attack upon me into salvation. It is the ego that makes sins real so that attack can take them away. Simply, I am the "way", not the way to "pay". In the ego's teaching, then, there is no escape from guilt. For attack makes guilt real, and if it is real there is no way to overcome it. You cannot attack God so you must not be guilty. You have done nothing to hurt him, nor can he be hurt. You need not fear the Higher Court will condemn you. It will merely dismiss the case against you. there can be no case against a child of God, and every witness to guilt in God's creation is bearing false witness to God Himself. Appeal everything to God's higher court. It will dismiss the case against you, however carefully you have built it up. The case may be fool-proof, but it is not God-proof. His verdict will always be "thine is the Kingdom," and the Holy Spirit was given you to remind you of this...of what you are. There is no world! Healing is the gift of those who are prepared to learn there is no world, and can accept the lesson now. What if you recognized the world is an hallucination? What if you really understood you made it up? What if you realized that those who seem to walk about in it, to sin and die, attack and murder and destroy themselves, are wholly unreal? Jesus
========================== You ever read Proverbs of Solomon , son of David,trader king in Israel??? And I am paraphrasing now ,there is a relationship between sparing the rod[discipline/spanking a kid ] and hell. And Jem & i both know he is not saying you are saved by being spanked as child. But You see a punk who knows no discipline; and i will show you a punk who shakes his puny fist in the face of God. Jesus believes in hell, dont go there as we say ; may want to read your new testament.
There is hell or Heaven, and of these you choose but one. There is Heaven and earth, and of these you choose but one. There is light, or darkness, and of these you choose but one. There is limitless spirit, and there are limited bodies, and of these you choose but one. There is Oneness, or there is separation; of these you choose but one. How do you make the choice? You always choose between your weakness and the strength of Christ in you. And what you choose is what you think is real. What is temptation but the wish to stay in hell and misery? Whatever form temptation seems to take, it always reflects a wish to be a self that you are not. And from that wish a concept rises, teaching that you are the thing you wish to be. It will remain your concept of yourself until the wish that fathered it no longer is held dear. But while you cherish it, you will behold your brother in the likeness of the self whose image has the wish begot of you. My brother, choose once again if you would take your place among the saviors of the world, or would remain in hell, and hold your brothers there. Temptation has one lesson it would teach: It would persuade the Holy Son of God he is a body, born in what must die, unable to escape it's frailty, and bound by what it orders him to feel. It sets limits on what he can do; his power is the only strength he has; his grasp cannot exceed its tiny reach. Is this what you would choose to be if Christ appeared to you in all his Glory and said, "My brother, choose again" ? My brothers, who has convinced you that you are not in hell? And who has convinced you that hell is real? What is unreal must be hell. Yet you spend all your energy telling yourselves that the worlds of time, space and form are real! How is this not temptation? The world is "dark". How is that not hell? You see only fear, and fear is hell. This is a world you have made, and it is this world salvation would undo. You do not know how you made such a world. If you did, it would be gone. There is no statement the world is more afraid of than this: I do not know the thing I am, and therefore do not know what I am doing, where I am, or how to look upon the world or myself. Yet if you can learn this, salvation is born in you. Salvation is undoing. What have you done? You've made an image of yourself that is simply not true! You've made bodies, saying, "I am made in the image of God". You've said, "Bodies are real". You've made ignorance, saying, "I am a son of the big bang and/or chemical/evolutionary/natural/cyclical processes". Either way, you do not know the thing you are! But this is your will, and God himself has said, "Thy will be done". Your will be done, you holy child of God. It does not matter if you think you are in earth or in Heaven. What your Father wills of you can never change. The truth in you remains as radiant as a star, as pure as light, as innocent as love itself. And you are worthy that your will be done. You live in Heaven just as much as you live in hell... For both are concepts of yourself, which can be interchanged, but never jointly held. You see the flesh or recognize the spirit. There is no compromise between the two. If one is real, the other must be false, for what is real denies it's opposite. What you decide in this determines all you see and think is real and hold as true. On this one choice does all your world depend, for here have you established what you are, as flesh or spirit in your own belief. If you choose flesh, you never will escape the body as your own reality, for you have chosen that you want it so. But choose spirit, and all Heaven bends to touch your eyes and bless your holy sight, that you may see the world of flesh no more except to heal and comfort and to bless. The concept of the self stands like a shield, a silent barricade before the truth, and hides it from your sight. All things you see are images, because you look on them as through a barrier that dims your sight and warps your vision, so that you behold nothing with clarity. The light is kept from everything you see. At best, you glimpse a shadow of what lies beyond. At worst, you merely look on darkness, and perceive the terrified imaginings that come form guilty thoughts and concepts born of fear. And what you see is hell, for fear is hell. Be vigilant against temptation, then, remembering that it is but a wish, insane and meaningless, to make yourself a thing that you are not. It is a thing of madness, pain and death; a thing of treachery and black despair, of failing dreams and no remaining hope except to die, and end the dream of fear. Think upon the thing you would be instead. Behold your role within the universe! You have a part to fulfill in the undoing of all of this. And unless you fulfill your part, none of this is undone. This is the "law" that I came to fulfill. I have done my part, and you will do yours. Without yours, the law is not fulfilled. To each one has the Lord of Love allowed the grace to be a savior to the holy ones especially entrusted to his care. To you has He entrusted the salvation of every part of creation from the misery of hell. Yet while you wish to stay in hell, how could you be the savior of the Son of God? And what could this give rise to but an image of yourself that can be miserable, and remain in hell and torment? To everyone has God entrusted all, because a partial savior would be one who is but partly saved. The holy ones whom God has given you to save are but everyone you meet or look upon, not knowing who they are; all those you saw an instant and forgot, and those you knew a long while since, and those you will yet meet; the unremembered and the not yet born. For God has given you His Son to save from every concept that he ever held. Learn to see but one brother not in hell, and you have saved yourself, and thus you are the savior to the rest. Therefore I choose to see a self-concept known as the "pope"...and see instead a brother who has lost his way. I see him as he is, a Son of God, who's rightful home is Heaven. And in so seeing, I see myself, and save myself. I am the way. This is the way. Jesus
This is what the destruction of Heaven looks like. This is what the Son of God looks like when he mistakes himself for everything he is not: http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/feelnikon/discovery/universcale/index_f.htm If I accept that I am prisoner within a body, in a world in which all things that seem to live appear to die, then is my Father prisoner with me. And this do I believe, when I maintain the laws the world obeys must I obey; the frailties and the sins which I perceive are real, and cannot be escaped. If I am bound in any way, I do not know my Father nor my Self. And I am lost to all reality. For truth is free, and what is bound is not a part of truth. This is the domain of the ego. It is an "image" in perception...a self-concept made to seem real: http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/feelnikon/discovery/universcale/index_f.htm What is the Word of God? "My Son is pure and holy as Myself." And thus did God become the Father of the Son He loves, for thus was he created. This the Word His Son did not create with Him, because in this His Son was born. Let us accept His Fatherhood, and all is given us. Deny we were created in His Love and we deny our Self, to be unsure of Who we are, of Who our Father is, and for what purpose we have come. And yet, we need but to acknowledge Him Who gave His Word to us in our creation, to remember Him and so recall our Self. This is the measurement of an idol: http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/feelnikon/discovery/universcale/index_f.htm Let us not worship idols, nor believe in any law idolatry would make to hide the freedom of the Son of God. He is not bound except by his beliefs. Yet what he is, is far beyond his faith in slavery or freedom. He is free because he is his Father's Son. And he cannot be bound unless God's truth can lie, and God can will that He deceive Himself. This is the size of a prison for the Son of God: http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/feelnikon/discovery/universcale/index_f.htm Your Son is free, my Father. Let me not imagine I have bound him with the laws I made to rule the body. He is not subject to any laws I made by which I try to make the body more secure. He is not changed by what is changeable. He is not slave to any laws of time. He is as You created him, because he knows no law except the law of love. This is both the damage and the damage control. This is the depth of hell: http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/feelnikon/discovery/universcale/index_f.htm Whom God created limitless is free. I can invent imprisonment for him, but only in illusions, not in truth. No Thought of God has left its Father's Mind. No Thought of God is limited at all. No Thought of God but is forever pure. Can I lay limits on the Son of God, whose Father willed that he be limitless, and like Himself in freedom and in love? This is where the "prodigal Son" goes to wander. This is a dream: http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/feelnikon/discovery/universcale/index_f.htm The end of dreams is promised me, because God's Son is not abandoned by His Love. Only in dreams is there a time when he appears to be in prison, and awaits a future freedom, if it be at all. Yet in reality his dreams are gone, with truth established in their place. And now is freedom his already. Should I wait in chains which have been severed for release, when God is offering me freedom now? Jesus