Is God mute?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by nitro, Jul 2, 2015.

  1.  
    #611     Jun 1, 2016
  2. Ricter

    Ricter

    Back to biology, by chance have you read Nick Lane's The Vital Question? I'm considering reading it.
     
    #612     Jun 1, 2016
  3.  
    #613     Jun 1, 2016
  4. stu

    stu

    #614     Jun 1, 2016
  5. stu

    stu

    I haven't read it Ricter. Reminds me of all those years ago posting about abiogenesis and hydrothermal vents. It's most interesting to hear how the finer details are being filled out by Nick Lane.
    Thanks for the links OT.
     
    #615     Jun 1, 2016
  6. jem

    jem

    perfect 1950s thinking by stu. no concept of the complexities science has observed. Just it happened. He won't even acknowledge that his idea requires either random chance or pre programmed evolution because he has that much intellectual backbone.

     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
    #616     Jun 1, 2016
  7. stu

    stu

    You think natural evolution needs pre-programming? :D

    It's about change due to environment.

    Now that your random chance red-herring bs has completely run out of steam, you should take a stab at why the inevitable outcome of natural evolving forces, which are observed all the time throughout the universe in every kind of way would not, in preference to some of your own dark ages unfathomable thinking, be why the universe exists. At least you should if you want to show any kind of intellect at all.
     
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    #617     Jun 1, 2016
  8. jem

    jem

    you are so desperately full of shit on these issues its comedy. I wonder if you remain purposefully ignorant or you are just a series of paid content posters who pull from the same pool of pre made templates.

    yes... evolution can be pre programmed with the drive for life. Top scientists in the field have written about it. We saw an article here recently discussing this issue...

    Nasa scientists states universe appears hardwired to produce life...

    http://www.elitetrader.com/et/index...verse-seems-hardwired-to-produce-life.299093/


    “If you think of all these little molecules we’re making as Lego blocks, and life as a kind of very complex, organised Lego castle, the fact that Lego blocks are falling out of the sky can’t be a bad thing.”



     
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    #618     Jun 1, 2016
  9. stu

    stu

    I know you struggle a lot with rationality but you should stop reading your tuner creator into stuff all the time .It clearly makes you get very angry.

    There would be nothing more likely or obvious than the universe being hardwired to produce life from the inevitable outcomes of natural evolving forces. That is hard wiring, naturally.
    And after all, it's what's observed.
    Everywhere!
     
    #619     Jun 1, 2016
  10. jem

    jem

    why would your desperation to support 1950s random chance atheism make me angry. I find it so odd you could be so ignorant but write well. its seems you must be trolling out your bullshit on purpose. Its why I suspect you are a paid content troll.
    once again I have to bring the science to you...


    summary of the science of a paper from MIT which surveyed many of the top scientists in the field.

    http://web.mit.edu/rog/www/papers/does_origins.pdf

    We now know that the probability of life arising by chance is far too low to
    be plausible, hence there must be some deeper explanation that we are yet to
    discover, given which the origin of life is atleastreasonably likely. Perhaps we
    have little idea yet what form this explanation will take—although of course it
    will not appeal to the work of a rational agent; this is would be a desperate
    last resort, if an option at all—but we have every reason to look for such an
    explanation, for we have every reason to think there is one.
    In a detailed survey of the field, Iris Fry (1995, 2000) argues that although
    the disagreements among origin of life theorists run very deep, relating to the
    most basic features of the models they propose, the view sketched above is a
    fundamental unifying assumption (one which Fry strongly endorses). Some
    researchers in the field are even more optimistic of course. They believe that
    they have already found the explanation, or at least have a good head start
    on it. But their commitment to the thesis above is epistemically more basic,
    in the sense that it motivated their research in the first place and even if their
    theories were shown to be false, they would retain this basic assumption.
    3
    There is a very small group of detractors, whom Fry (1995) calls the “Almosta Miracle Camp” including Francis Crick (1981), ErnstMayr (1982),
    and Jaques Monod (1974), who appear to be content with the idea that life
    arose by chance even if the probability of this happening is extremely low.
    4
    According to Crick “the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a
    miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to been satisfied
    to get it going” (1981: 88); the emergence of life was nevertheless a “happy
    accident” (p. 14).
    5
    According to Mayr, “a full realization of the near impossibility of an origin of life brings home the point of how improbable this
    event was.” (1982: 45). Monod famously claimed that although the probability of life arising by chance was “virtually zero. . .our number came up in the
    Monte Carlo game” (1974: 137). Life, as Monod puts it, is “chance caught
    on a wing” (p. 78). That is, although natural selection took over early to produce the diversity of life, its origin was nothing but an incredibly improbable
    fluke.Does Origins of Life Research Rest on a Mistake? 459
    However, the vast majority of experts in the field clearly define their work
    in opposition to this view. The more common attitude is summed up neatly
    by J. D. Bernal.
    [T]he question, could life have originated by a chance occurrence of atoms,
    clearly leads to a negative answer. This answer, combined with the knowledge
    that life is actually here, leads to the conclusion that some sequences other than
    chance occurrences must have led to the appearances of life. (quoted in Fry 2000:
    153)
    Having calculated the staggering improbability of life’s emergence by chance,
    Manfred Eigen (1992) concludes,
    The genes found today cannot have arisen randomly, as it were by the throw of
    a dice. There must exist a process of optimization that works toward functional
    efficiency. Even if there are several routes to optimal efficiency, mere trial and
    error cannotbe one of them. (p. 11)
    It is from this conclusion that Eigen motivates his search for a physical principle that does not leave the emergence of life up to blind chance, hence
    making itreproducible in principle:
    The physical principle that we are looking for should be in a position to explain
    the complexity typical of the phenomena of life at the level of molecular structures and syntheses. It should show how such complex molecular arrangements
    are able to form reproducibly in Nature. (p. 11)
    According to Christian de Duve (1991),
    . . .unless one adopts a creationist view,. . .life arose through the succession of an
    enormous number of small steps, almost each of which, given the condition at
    the time had a very high probability of happening. . .the alternative amounts to
    a miracle. . .were [the emergence of life] not an obligatory manifestation of the
    combinatorial properties of matter, it could not possibly have arisen naturally.
    (p. 217)
    Not all theorists follow De Duve so far as suggesting that life’s emergence
    mustbe inevitable. While nota specialistin the area, Richard Dawkins (1987)
    captures the attitude that appears to dominate scientific research into life’s
    origin. According to Dawkins,
    All who have given thought to the matter agree that an apparatus as complex as
    the human eye could not possibly come into existence through [a single chance
    event]. Unfortunately the same seems to be true of at least parts of the apparatus
    of cellular machinery whereby DNA replicates itself (p. 140)460 NOUS ˆ
    In considering how the first self-replicating machinery arose, Dawkins asks
    “Whatis the largestsingle eventof sheer naked coincidence, sheer unadulterated miraculous luck, that we are allowed to get away with in our theories,
    and still say that we have a satisfactory explanation of life?” (p. 141) And
    he answers that there are strict limits on the “ration of luck” that we are
    allowed to postulate in our theories.
    6
    According to Dawkins, an examination
    of the immense complexity of the most basic mechanisms required for DNA
    replication is sufficient to see that any theory which makes its existence a
    highly improbable fluke is unbelievable, quite apart from what alternative
    explanations are on the table


    http://web.mit.edu/rog/www/papers/does_origins.pdf



     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
    #620     Jun 1, 2016