Iran and American Interference

Discussion in 'Politics' started by SouthAmerica, Feb 6, 2006.

  1. achilles28

    achilles28

    Yes, but not for the reasons you mentioned.


    This is the same mindless argument autoworkers make when faced with the future obsolescence of the automobile.

    'How will our economy make up for such a devastating loss?'

    Its very simple. If people don't spend it on cars, or taxes, or oil - they spend it elsewhere.

    The ratio of individual consumption to savings does not change.

    What do you think consumers are going to do with the money? Squirrel away the entire savings (tens of thousands) under the mattress for a 'rainy day'?

    Is that what happens when tax rates are cut in a country? Fuck no.

    Consumers *spend* their newly freed cash on nonessentials. Fashion, travel, nightlife, autos, real estate, investments, education, entertainment etc.

    Each of these industries would experience an influx of billions; justifying the expansion - and hiring - of tens of thousands of new workers.

    What ensues is a merely a redistribution of wealth and labor from energy intensive industries (oil extraction, refinement, distribution, maintenance) to the myriad and diverse needs of the newly invigorated industries named above.

    Under a free energy economy, wealth (read: jobs) are not destroyed. They are merely transferred.

    Your argument is just a dimwitted scare tactic perpetuated by those who don't know any better. Or do, but like things just the way the are.


    Who said under a free energy economy oil wouldn't be useful?

    Of course, under such conditions, we still use oil to manufacture plastics and other useful petrochemical composites.

    But the demand for plastics comprises such a small proportion of total petroleum demand, the point is moot.

    Oil at a dollar a barrel. Or 30 cents? Who cares. The sticky black goo is rendered slightly more valuable than dirt.


    Your insistence alternative energy research be confined to the existing petrochemical paradigm - or 'jeopardize the precarious global economy' in the process - is a total farce. See above.

    There is no industrial model or theoretical roadmap we should restrict our efforts to when pursuing dirt-cheap, energy production.

    Any attempt in that direction is ultimately just a thinly veiled attempt by big oil, defense and their minions at providing false maps of the mind to reinforce the status quo. With them on top. Still controlling the gates.

    Total bullshit.



    Except free energy.
     
    #51     Feb 7, 2006
  2. That's funny.
     
    #52     Feb 7, 2006
  3. achilles28

    achilles28

    This couldn't be more true. There are TENS of TRILLIONS at stake. Both in aquired assets and future profits.

    With that kind of astronomical wealth up for grabs - and power as a direct result (think of all the congressional whores you can buy with that) - there are scores of elite scumbags who would step over their own mother - let alone kill - to secure their own place in that empire.


    Agreed. But as it stands today, big oil/defense dominate:

    #1 geopolitics and

    #2 public perception - via congressional-sponsered suppression of free energy research


    No, I mean free energy. Controlled fusion, ti<to electrolysis, solar arrays, tidal fluctuations, harnessing ambiant magnetic energy etc.
     
    #53     Feb 7, 2006
  4. Nothing is free. Conrolled fusion is not free. It may be one of the best hopes for access to nearly unlimited energy but it is by no means free. If it was free we would already have it.
     
    #54     Feb 7, 2006
  5. Sam123

    Sam123 Guest

    Well, first of all, I don’t subscribe to the belief that rich corporations lose their capability of good conscience. Some do, but most do not. Second, the companies that buy congressional whores to maintain the status quo actually believe they are doing good will and are trying to maintain what they believe is best for the nation. They may be wrong in their decisions, but that does not make them evil.

    Yes, but I believe they are engaging in a losing battle with both #1 and #2. Today, a top Exxon executive says we will always “remain dependent on foreign oil” as if we can do nothing about it. And we should stop this nonsense advocating for energy independence. Then he goes on with this thing about energy “interdependence.” Sure. But is this about buying energy from friendly nations? Or is it about buying oil from hostile cultures? What kind of “interdependence” he is referring to?

    I think Exxon is trying to maintain a status quo that historically meant cheap oil and gas for America’s economy. But the geopolitical energy game has changed –to America’s grave disadvantage. Are they aware of this? I think not. You would think they are the first to be aware of it but it’s like the alcoholic being the last to know about his welfare, when everyone else knows. When the stakes are so high; when reality threatens the person and the company, often times, the are the last to know.

    I would focus on fission before fusion. By the way farmers have converted their land to wind/solar renewables. They allow their utilities to install wind arrays and they get $$$ royalties greater than whatever they could legally grow.
     
    #55     Feb 7, 2006
  6. NKNY

    NKNY


    Sothamerica, I'm sure the peple of iran are very nice and educated people......But the people do not control the gov in iran. And as for them only using Nuclear weapons as a last resort...well, I really dont think the US will base is security on what you think.

    you view events as you would like them to appear...Not how they truly are...

    The truth is Iran is falling right into the US trap. Everything is by design... by the powers that be. Not you , me or Iran can do anything about the outcome. Irans Government must go. And they know this which is why they are trying to obtain nukes ASAP.


    Do you think the fact that Iran is currently surrounded by US forces is an accident. Sure, Bush & Co are in the White house right now saying:" Golly, look how lucky we got by invading Iraq and Afghanistan, now we have troops right where we need them for this "new Crises" with iran..." I dont think so ..

    This crises is not new and alot of planning has gone into this. Much of the planning is political. How can the US bring Assets where they need to be while minimizing Backlash from the US and world population.

    Now that the assets are where they need to be, the US is actually in a holding pattern preparing the political side of the game... .. I mean they cant just start a war.

    Also, they are not getting their ass kicked as you "Think". Sure the Insurgents will attack where they can but this is just a drop in the bucket...The casualties are well within range of an occupation of this magnitude. And actually, the number is far lower then was anticipated. As a matter of fact, the projected casualties for the invasion were well into the thousands..... So the US is actually doing great in the Casualty dept FYI..

    Any loss is horrible IMO but lets get back to reality.... In the grand scheme of things ... it means nothing to the US agenda. So "getting their ass kicked" is your perspective, not reality. The "reality" is they are exactly where they want to be....they now have Iran surrounded and have had plenty of time to set up logistics for future combat operations with iran.

    Do you think that the fact that Bin laden escaped from tora bora wasn't by design.... Sure, Americans left the job of catching osama up to foreign fighters because they are idiots...Your an idiot if you believe that spoon feeding...

    Bin laden escaping = Fear and reason to invade iraq. The american public must feel fear to enable operations to continue.


    The inevitable outcome.... A US friendly government in Iran. If you want me to explain what a US friendly Government is... ask me...

    NK
     
    #56     Feb 7, 2006
  7. achilles28

    achilles28

    Most don't have to lose their moral compass to witness a few key 'rogue' industries from exerting a profound impact on mankinds destiny.

    Energy is number 1. War is number 2.



    Spoken as if you actually rub shoulders with top brass of big oil and defense.

    It doesn't take a genius to realise any abundant energy source that serves as an effective substitute to gas spells certain death to big oil - and their trillions in assets and future earnings.

    If you really believe oil barons would gladly put Americas welfare first - in exchange for their own trillions - I've got a great piece of beach front property in az id like to show you....



    Yes, they're just 'misguided'. Just like Enron, Tyco, Arthur Andersen, Worldcom ect etc.

    How can we help those poor souls find their way again?



    Interesting. But what makes you think big oil is even one step closer to losing its iron tight grasp on us?

    We are still just as dependent on oil as we ever were. Alternative energies receive paltry funding and the lions share is just a distraction to placate the public into believing something is actually being done to wean this countries insatiable addiction to petrochems.

    Nothing of any consequence is being done - except that which the American public take it upon themselves to do. Privately.


    Is that why Americas best buddy (big oil) was shown over the summer to be consciously sidelining existing refining capacity to exacerbate shortages and boost prices?

    Big oil earns tens of billions per quarter. Why would they want to see a resurgence of 15 dollar-a-barrel oil that barely puts them in the black?

    Or, for that matter, more refining capacity in the US?

    There hasn't been a new, major refinery built in the US since the 70's.

    Its called artificial scarcity.


    The only disadvantage America is suffering from is the one imposed on this nation by its own elected representatives on behalf of their corporate masters.

    Big oil couldn't give a flying fuck if this country is submarined by a major recession by rising energy costs. So what? America will be here the next day. And the year after that. and..

    The only result will be the fed running its presses day and night to flood the public with cheap debt necessary to greese its corporate rulers - all backed by the future productivity of the American public.


    Yes, wind farms are a great, real source of renewable energy. One could even imagine massive, high yield wind farms erected in high elevation, mountainous regions churning out electricity day and night.

    The possibilities are endless. Fission, fusion, ambient magnetic harnessing, solar farms, tidal farms, low energy electrolysis.

    There are countless avenues to explore - all having significant potential. But no real commitment by Congress, or media, or our beloved big Oil to pursue any of these potential technologies.

    Again, Federal or focused-private sector research is a poor way of going about it anyway (not that it would ever happen). No disclosure, no oversight, no incentive to perform = no results.

    Harness the latent and awesome power of the market - put up 50 billion for a free energy xprize - and you'd witness a glut of radical and revolutionary machines that could transform this planet in a year.
     
    #57     Feb 7, 2006
  8. achilles28

    achilles28

    You're turning a theoretical exchange into a semantical one.

    No one is arguing free energy costs zero to develop. Its called colloquial dialogue.

    Free energy = Total cost to develop + implement / total energy output = approaching zero.
     
    #58     Feb 7, 2006
  9. toc

    toc

    "Do you think the fact that Iran is currently surrounded by US forces is an accident."

    While I do accept that US attacking Iraq was a grave error which we all are seeing daily, but it would be a fatal error if the US sends ground troops into Iran. In the case of Iraq, it was Sunni minority ruling the shiate majority and even then
    Sunni insurgents have created havoc on US forces. In Iran's case it is Shiaite majority, i.e. local population would be 95% hostile to the US/NATO troops and it would be not a matter of insurgents sneaking in but 'insurgents well hidden and taken care of within the local populations'. It will be Guerrilla war at its best efficiency. Guerrilla wars are not winable in the first place, this would be total mess for the US troops.
     
    #59     Feb 7, 2006
  10. NKNY

    NKNY

    Actually, I don't think attacking Iraq was an error.... I believe it was well planned but made to look like an error. Mistakes like these aren't made by mistake.

    I do agree however that the US should not attempt to occupy Iran. I don't believe they will make such an attempt however. It will be more of the shock & awe , get in and get out type of operation. I don't think there will be an occupation although I do see a need for ground forces if the government doesn't implode with air power alone. unfortunately, In most situations, air power isn't enough.

    The Us is working with anti government elements in Iran that should help oust the gov as well...

    NK
     
    #60     Feb 7, 2006