Intelligent Design is not creationism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Teleologist, Nov 4, 2006.

  1. jcl

    jcl

    1. Can you please give me a link to the original source of the "10 to the 53", so that I can see what's meant with this number and how it's calculated.

    2. Penrose says so in his recent book, and also in the very video - just listen to it. He's referring to the entropy curve and to string theory solutions, not to what you mean with fine tuning and the multiverse.

    String theory solutions are _not_ the multiverse, at least not in the sense of differently "tuned" universes. String theory solutions generate vastly different universes with different geometry, and it's not even clear if every solution is a really existent universe, although Penrose believes that.

    3. I can't comment on Susskind as I do not know his book.

    Religious people tend to discuss by quoting "authorities", just as they quote the bible. But science works differently. Only theories and observations matter in science. It's certainly possible that some famous scientist says "the universe is fine tuned", but without knowing what he means and what observation he refers to, this is irrelevant. Understand his theory. Quotes can't replace arguments.
     
    #4111     Jun 24, 2012
  2. The atheist story of creation:

    “Yea, in the beginning there was Nothing, and Nothing begat nothing—not even darkness. Nothing be praised! Then lo, for no reason Nothing became All That Is; yea Stuff happened to happen. Then behold, the pointless fumblings of the Hand of Chance (praised be Its name) breathed Life unto Itself. Lo, and Dead Stuff begat Live Monkeys! And it came to pass that the monkeys begat humans, such as Bill Maher. Thanks for Nothing!”
     
    #4112     Jun 24, 2012
  3. Except science does not say that in the beginning was nothing.
     
    #4113     Jun 24, 2012
  4. stu

    stu

    No, it's the theist story claiming to be what the atheist story is.
     
    #4114     Jun 25, 2012
  5. stu

    stu

    Why haven't you listened to the authority you already relied upon to explain "how all the tuning were set" as you put it?
    I suggest you listen better to Steven Weinberg who has already told you "I don't think it requires a fine tuning of the constants of nature."

    Then stop trying to misunderstand what he does say just to insert the improbable possibility of a 'tuner/designer/creator/god as if they are conclusions.
     
    #4115     Jun 25, 2012

  6. =============
    The trouble with many new traders [newbies] they want''predictions'' about the market:D Only the Bible has many accurate predictions;
    many in a specific time period.

    Mr. Stu-Your statement makes about as much sense as saying counterfeit $100 bills are the same as $100 bills.

    1]:cool: God can easly create & destroy.Watch this Bible prediction-
    ...Gog[Rusisa], Gomer [germany] Persia[Iran] Put[Libya], Ethopia invade Israel{Ezekiel 38, 39}

    2]Why invade Israel??Ezekiel predicts''have you come to take plunder,have you gathered your army to take booty/
    to carry away silver and gold, to take away live stock & goods??Ezeliel 38, 39.[ Not a prediction on the price of gold, silver simply,they are part of wealth..]

    3] Those chapters [Ezek 38, 39]are full of future predictions.Surely in that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.
    4] Every wall shall fall..[quite a quake]
    [5]'' Every man on the earth shall shake'' in that quake
    6] God says he will enter in to judgement,on Israel's enemies
    with brimstone with fire ,
    with flood,
    with pesteance,
    with great hailsones.....................
    [7] It takes 7 months to bury ther dead enemies of Israel. God says a result , he will ''be known in the eyes of many nations''
    Hope this helps , it helped me:cool:
     
    #4116     Jun 25, 2012
  7. stu

    stu

    murray t turtle, (not an alias, right?)
    There is no genuine Bible. Only a version which agrees with your beliefs. There are genuine $100 bills, despite your agreement or beliefs.
     
    #4117     Jun 25, 2012
  8. jem

    jem

    1.
    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kNpiX8XQhJM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    starting at 3min 40 secs

    2. I see no info from anywhere saying Penrose does not mean what he says in this video.


    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WhGdVMBk6Zo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    3. There is a consensus of the the top scientists in the field with few holdouts that there universe appears fine tuned. But, there are a few different candidate explanations.


    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mlD-CJPGt1A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


     
    #4118     Jun 25, 2012
  9. jcl

    jcl

    Thanks for the link. I can now see where those mysterious 10^56 that you quoted come from. It is the difference of the theoretically estimated vacuum energy to the observed value. In fact, other estimates gave an even higher difference, about 10^120.

    Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy

    The theoretical value is obviously way off, and there are several explanations for this. The first problem is that it's just an estimate and can be completely wrong. Really calculating the vacuum energy requires a quantum gravity theory which we don't have yet. There's also the possibility that the estimate is correct, but the vacuum energy is cancelled out by a negative term of about the same amount. This was the fine tuning Weinberg was referring to - the vacuum energy and the negative term must be almost exactly the same in that case, for resulting in the much smaller observed value. However, as the physics behind this negative term is yet unknown, it can have any value, or it can be just identical to the vacuum energy. It makes not much sense to derive some fine tuning requirement from it.

    And all this has absolutely nothing to do with some supernatural explanation. If you believe in the supernatural, it's your personal business, but nowhere in the field of physics, cosmology, or biology you'll find any phenomenon that would require supernatural miracles for an explanation.
     
    #4119     Jun 26, 2012
  10. jem

    jem

    I see your point... nobel prize winner Weinberg must have gotten lucky when he figured out the apparent fine tuning 10 years before it was confirmed by observation. Heck what does he know about the subject.

    Penrose really did not mean fine tuning when he said it either.
    and
    Dawkins was wrong in that video when he spoke of fine tuning and ..

    a Oh yeah...

    Hawking and Hartle must be off base, as well, for writing this silly thing about fine tuning and an outside agency, in their paper.

    http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0602/0602091v2.pdf

    "... Furthermore, we have no control over the initial state of the universe, and there is certainly no opportunity for observing multiple copies of the universe. In fact if one does adopt a bottom-up approach to cosmology, one is immediately led to an essentially classical framework, in which one loses all ability to explain cosmology’s central question - why our universe is the way it is. In particular a bottom-up approach to cosmology either requires one to postulate an initial state of
    the universe that is carefully &#64257;ne-tuned [10] - as if prescribed by an outside agency or it requires one to invoke the notion of eternal in&#64258;ation [11], which prevents one from predicting what a typical observer would see.

    Here we put forward a di&#64256;erent approach to cosmology in the string landscape, based not on the classical idea of a single history for the universe but on the quantum sum over histories [12]. We argue that the quantum origin of the universe naturally leads to a framework for cosmology where amplitudes for alternative histories of the universe are computed with boundary conditions at late times only. We thus envision
    a set of alternative universes in the landscape, with amplitudes given by the no boundary path integral [13].





     
    #4120     Jun 26, 2012