Haven't heard of him. Might look into it. I think I'm just trying to reconcile the concept of freewill with omniscience. Plus, "god actions" with freewill "actions." From my thinking on the subject, it seems that in order to have freewill, god must not be omniscient. Assuming God's omniscience is just about God knowing all choices, the question is, "can one make a choice God didn't know about?" And if God knows about all choices wouldn't that suggest that freewill is illusionary? I don't know. More work needs to be done...
God does not suffer. The Son of God suffers when he denies he is who he is. The Son of God is joy, so to deny this is to invite depression into experience. Man is the expression of the Son's depression...as he morphs into something he is not, and wanders aimlessly in a foreign land. That land and it's landlord, are the subject of this thread. Man was not made in joy, nor for joy. I am known for telling a parable called "the prodigal, or wayward Son". I told that parable well because I could relate to the character. Like all men, I was that prodigal Son. I suffered like any other man, through cycles of birth and death. I let the suffering wake me up, like a wake up call, to find a better way, to find my way back home. When I, Jesus, stopped denying that I was the Son of God, I stopped suffering. I attracted followers easily because my joy was palpable. Contrary to guilt laden opinion, I did not suffer during my ordeal with an experience that would frighten most men. I chose that experience partly to show myself that: A. There is nothing to fear. B. An innocent mind cannot suffer. Note well that none of the popularly accepted gospel accounts assert that I suffered, or described how I felt. They simply sketch out what happened. Men make up their own minds what that must have meant through their own guilt laden filters. A guilty mind would indeed suffer pain under such circumstances. But the value of the lesson is lost unless it is observed that the Son of God does not suffer...is not appointed to suffer, ever. The whole point is to cease suffering by accepting the truth about our heritage as the Son of God, a truth all men have denied, or they would not be men. I was a teacher, and taught right up through crucifixion and beyond. My Teacher was One I sometimes called the "Holy Spirit". I learned that I am the Holy Spirit, who retrieves the Son of God from his wandering in a "foreign land", and guides him home. It was this Teacher who taught me that I am everything. Simultaneously, I learned that I am not a man called Jesus. So I spoke as the Holy Spirit, in the first person. This confuses all those who see me as the "son of man". "I am the way, the truth, and the life", was spoken first person as the Holy Spirit. I, Jesus, showed the way to go from identifying as "the son of man" to identifying as "the Son of God". Big difference. I said all that to say this: The Holy Spirit always leads away from pain and suffering, toward joy and comfort. What I taught was that even though each man's "life" is scripted, he can sail through his appointments without suffering, as long as he identifies with the Son of God while listening with focused attention on the guiding voice of the Holy Spirit. I would like to add, I call for teachers, not for martyrs. You do not need to suffer for God. On the contrary, you must learn to cease suffering if you will know yourself as the Son of God. Pain is a concept foreign and unknown to God and his Son. It keys off of guilt and fear, two more concepts totally alien to the Kingdom of God. Jesus
HH: >real Christians exercise the minds God gave them. And, "real Christians" (like you I assume) aren't judgemental either. Right? JB
I recommend Beyond the Cosmos by Hugh Ross. This book is one of the few religious books that I have seen reviewed in Skeptic Magazine and not get bashed. That's because Hugh Ross does a generally good job of sticking to science. This book directly deals with what you wrote about above. Below is a review. (Note: Extradimensionality is widely accepted in physics although not yet completely established because it is based on String Theory which is difficult to prove.) Regardless, it is very interesting reading imo... "How can my choices be totally âfreeâ if God is in control of all things at all times and knows the end from the beginning? How can God hear my words and thoughts while listening to billions of others around the world at exactly the same moment? How can God be all-powerful and all-loving and yet allow so much suffering and evil? These are complex paradoxes with far-reaching implications that have troubled people for centuries, testing the faith of those who believe in the biblical, personal God, and proving a stumbling block to those who do not. But the phenomena that seem impossible in the four-dimensional world we know (the three dimensions of space, plus the dimension of time) can become comprehensible when examined in the context of extra dimensions. What are the implications of a personal God who can operate in and beyond such a realm? " http://www.navpress.com/Store/Product/9781576831120.html Btw, I have read almost all of Hugh Ross' books and, while they're not light reading, they're a fantastic summary of the pro-theistic evidence. (The atheist/skeptic viewpoint you can get in many, many other books.)
You probably know this, but subjects dealing with predestination/free will/ominscience and other similar topics have been some of the most hotly debated topics amoung Christians for the past half millenia. On the one corner you have the Calvinists which are defined by T-U-L-I-P: http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm Personally, I don't agree with all points of Calvinism, but I have a lot of friends who do. I am actually Arminian and here's a nice summary of the differences centering around the TULIP idea: http://www.cresourcei.org/tulip.html And I'm not trying to bombard you, but you seem like you might be kind of interested in this stuff, so here goes: Here's Wesley's brief tract on "What is an Arminian?" http://gbgm-umc.org/UMHistory/Wesley/arminian.stm Wesley's most outspoken attack on Calvinism is his sermon "Free Grace" which may be found here: http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-128.stm You will find the writings of Arminius here: http://wesley.nnu.edu/arminianism/Arminius/index.htm
Hmmm.. actually, it works the other way around. It's not up to me to provide evidence to 'thwart your suspicion'. It's up to you to provide evidence for your beliefs - that is, if you want publicize them and subject them to scrutiny. You seem to have it backwards! Now, if you want to believe in Creation in private, then no problem - that's where religion should be practiced. Please provide some evidence for your claims!! And remember, you can't ask us to prove and negative - that is, saying "you can't prove that ID is not true' is not proof that it is!! In the West, we operate the other way around - we need to prove something is true. If you can't, then believing in it is simply a matter of faith. No problem with that, let's just call it what it is!!
The "God" of this world does know about all choices, and has scripted them into a multiple-choice environment in which there is the appearance of free will. Man does not realize he is an automaton who chooses only between illusions while he values illusions. So it's actually a form of slavery. Man is not free except to choose no longer to be a man. The "God" of this world was an idol in the mind of the Son of God, which replaced his Father for an instant in his imagination. That instant contained all of time, and the whole history of man. But that is all it took for the idol to script every possible separation themed scenario , in an attempt to prolong it's "life" and substitute time for eternity. If successful, this would have destroyed the mind of the Son of God forever. It did not succeed thanks to the work of the Holy Spirit who rebuilt and healed the mind as fast as the idol could destroy it. And this is the meaning of "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it back up". Genesis says it took six days to make the world. But I tell you, metaphorically, it took three days for the idol to make it, and three days for the Holy Spirit to unmake it. What your eyeball sees is a remnant of the past. What you think of as "future" is also past. In reality, there is only now, always, eternity. Past does not exist. So this world no longer exists. The question now is, why do you linger longer in a world that does not exist? The short answer is that you are an aspect of the nearly-destroyed mind that is still, in time, in the process of being healed. You linger because ultimately, healing is your choice...and you have not yet chosen it. You will choose it, because you are of the one mind that has already chosen it. The attraction of truth is greater than the attraction of guilt. In addition, you have a special role to play in the unmaking of this world, as you allow yourself to be led by the Holy Spirit. You remain because you have not yet allowed yourself to be led. Your special role in the saving of the world corresponds to your wish to be special...resulting in the making of this world. As you played a role in it's making, you will play a role in it's unmaking. That is, the idol was merely a co-maker...an enabler. Ultimately you are responsible. Deep down, you think you are guilty for being responsible for it...so both responsibility and the guilt are repressed and denied...stuffed deep into fragmented levels of your mind. But I tell you, responsibility does not equal guilty. You are not guilty. Over time, the unmaking of the world appears to take thousands, if not millions of years. But what is time to God? Nothing! The "last judgement" is a process, over millennia, in which each man lays down the thinking mechanism that makes him a slave. That mechanism keys off of "judgement"...decision-making without all the facts. In the kingdom of God, there is only knowledge. With total knowledge, there are no "decisions" to make, thus, no judgements, no beliefs. That is why the advice, "judge not" is imperative. As a man, you are literally unable to make any decision, alone, that can heal your mind. All of your decisions so far have led to where you are now, in the world, surrounded by all your circumstances. You have made the choice to deny that you are the Son of God, and to pretend that there can be another will besides the Will shared by the Father and the Son. The world is the result of that. That is not a bad thing. The world of time is simply the answer to a question, "What if everything was different from what it is?" You have your answer. Be grateful. The question now is, is this what you still wish? The world will remain in your experience as long as you wish it to be so. And that is because you are still the Son of God, unlimited. And you receive whatever you ask for. Currently, you are receiving the world, because you have asked for it. Jesus
Shoeshineboy, Thanks for all the info and links. They're sure to get me thinking in different directions. It's interesting stuff I think. Worth looking into. Thanks again.
I am... That's a little over my head. But thanks for taking the time though. Maybe as I get a little further on into this subject, I'll be able to see what you're getting at.