mate, nothing personal and i don't mean to be dismissive here, honest. simply, i haven't read your post in its entirety nor taken much time to focus, cause: 1. wife's pregnant, i need to spend our week-end on other stuff than sterile semantic quarrels, or "he did that first" type stuff 2. our baby-to-be, to our knowledge (but we cld always be wrong) currently has no NOTION of god or otherwise therefore i won't entertain any discussion aiming at tagging him/her a theist / a-theist... that's pointless and i have better things to do with my time... 3. my post to ddunbar was perfectly sincere 4. if YOU decide to "generalize" what i said (wrote) as you did, fine, but those are YOUR words, not mine... i wish you and everybody on this thread an excellent week-end ;-) don't miss out guys / girls
TraderNik: What do you mean it sounds reasonable? You ID critics won't setttle for empirical data. You want to see the designer designing, right? Then you want to know who designed the designer.
The rest of us: That sounds reasonable. So can you tell us - what is this empirical data upon which you are basing your inference? What exactly is the 'empirical data' which supports the theory of intelligently designed cells? Teleologist: V 1.0 V 2.0 V 3.0 V 4.0 V5.0
Been down this road before with ID critics. I give them data that causes me to suspect the cell originated via bioengineering, then they blow it off with a response like this: Quote from ddunbar: When the ID critic asks for evidence of design, what they really want is to see the designer in action and even that's not enough. Then they want to know who designed the designer.
LOL... yes, a relevant question that you are unable to answer because it leads directly to your faith is a 'blow off'. How convenient for you. I notice that you are still unwilling to say what this 'empirical data' is. Not surprising, because the last time we asked you what it was, you said "The empirical datum upon which I base the inference that the first cells were designed is.... life on earth appears to me to be designed. That is the testable hypothesis that I am putting forward'.
Take any normal human being on the planet, normal in the sense that from birth they have no great mental or physical defect, have normal intelligence as measured by IQ tests. Teach them just the basic known facts of life. No unproved theory, no speculative garbage, just the basic facts that are as true today as they were thousands of years ago. Then around 6 years of age or so, show them a watch, show how it has been made, the design behind it, the way all the parts work together. Show them cars, and everything else mechanical. Show how the designer put it all together to work. Show them the great art of the world. Have them listen to the great classical music. Have them fully understand the way man's mind has created so much diversity, and at the same time that it has been done with initially only an idea in the mind, the source of external potency of creativity. Each and every thing designed began by man with a thought of some sort, then was designed and came into fruition on that basis. Poor design wouldn't not last, it would simply not function...back to the drawing board. Then take the same 6 year old and have them just observe the natural world. The variety of animal species, the way the species are colorful, different, varied, on land, in the sky, in the water...yet without flaw in the sense that the entire animal kingdom and plant kingdom and natural world exists in a natural harmony with no need of intervention from mankind. Show them the heavens and all the ways that we have such stability in the ways the planets move, that stars are not colliding all the time, the regularity, the predictability, etc. Have the child fully understand the concept of design versus random happenings. Then ask the 6 year old, what would be the conclusion of nearly every other 6 year old who performed this same empirical observation of the world around them? Chances are great that they would by observation conclude that the world, and and nature itself was designed...by something. That observation, that natural observation of the designs of man, and the condition of nature that they have in common is that they both appear designed. Then provide no evidence, no conclusive proof that they were not in fact a product of design, and that they did not follow any pattern of development or design. Then indoctrinate them into thinking that the entire universe, including mankind, including all the designed things of mankind...including art, literature, music, cooking and combining of foods, use of color, etc. are not a product of design at all, but ultimately they are nothing but accidental consequences and byproducts of random ignorant chance. Tell them that their initial observations are false. They can't trust their eyes, they can't trust their natural observations, they cannot trust their instincts...they must trust the judgment of those who are more "educated." The reaction of the 6 year old would be natural doubt and resistance, as his eyes are telling him one thing, his direct observations are revealing one thing...yet someone is telling him not to trust his eyes, his observations, nor his instincts and common sense, but rather to take a purely intellectual speculative position that what looks like it is designed, but is lacking in knowledge of design by some known and identifiable designer, is not designed, but a product of random ignorant chance development. All the laws of nature are not by design, but simply chance. Everything is ultimately just by chance, pure luck that everything works the way it does. Even man's intelligence and creativity are nothing but a product of pure dumb luck. The 6 year old will be very confused now. But constant reinforcement and conditioning of a 6 year old mind finally gets the child habituated to accepting as factual, something that is actually not factual. Layers and layers of theory are then loaded up upon the initial assumption of chance that is indoctrinated into the child by repeatedly telling the child that design in nature is not true, that it is false. What is this like? What is this similar to? Anyone ever smoke a cigarette? What was the initial natural reaction? I'm guessing coughing and disgust. Natural repulsions. But friends and peer groups are smoking, people who are smoking are said to be cool, we see iconic images of people smoking...so the child continues to try and smoke even though it is unnatural, and darned if after a while through repeated efforts, and given the addictive chemicals in cigarettes he not only gets used to smoking, he non only rejects the initial natural response, he enjoys it, looks forward to it, but the reality is that he gets addicted to something that is unnatural, and actually harmful to his existence. So, it is clear that human beings can be lead into habits (including belief systems) that are unnatural, and once addicted they can even rationalize what was initially experienced as so objectionable, so unnatural, so foreign to the human body that it is now considered the right thing and pleasurable thing to be doing. So it is with non design theory that is propagated in modern day science. It runs counter to intuition, common sense, and general innocent observation. It is drummed out of a child's head, in the same way that learning to lie when necessary is drilled into a child's head as "the right thing to do." From a platform of denying that what looks designed isn't designed (why isn't it designed? Because we can't find a designer) the mind then becomes addicted to an unnatural position of non design, just like the smoker. Non smokers are ridiculed by the smokers as "not cool, not with it." The natural condition of man is to observer the world around him, and the natural observation is that the world around him appears designed for the most part, and the natural desire would be to find a designer, even the chaos has its place and reasons in the cycles of nature....yet the mind is conditioned to reject this natural and simple view of life. Modern day atheists and so called "natural" science calls this process of mind conditioning to reject the natural observation of the world as "progress." Cigarette companies call the addiction to cigarettes "profits." Progress and profits...they go so well together, don't they...
TraderNik: That's not what I said. TraderNik: You are being disingenuous in asking for empirical data for ID because you think the "who designed the designer" question trumps any empirical data. Evidently you think philosophy trumps empiricism.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80058&perpage=40&pagenumber=57 Disingenuous⦠yes, I see. So we say that there is no evidence to support the theory that the first cells were designed by an intelligent designer. You then say that you have empirical evidence that supports the theory. We ask you to cite that evidence. And your reply is⦠that we are being disingenuous? Carry on, oh ye of little faith. -------------------------------------- Teleologist: I infer that the first cells were designed. This inference is based on empirical data. The Rest of Us: Ok, that seems reasonable. What is this empirical data? Teleologist: "Evasion V 1.0, or V 2.0 or V 3.0 or V 4.0 or V 5.0" and we can add evasion V 6.0 âThat is a disingenuous questionâ. Wouldnât it be great if the real world worked like Teleologistâs little world?
TraderNik: It's disingenuous to ask for evidence of ID when what you really require is seeing the designer in action. If we could see the designer in action we wouldn't need evidence of ID as we would have direct proof of ID. You are posing as an open-minded inquirer that's capable of processing clues that point to ID but you actually won't accept anything less than absolute proof.
Thank you My point is proved, incontrovertibly. I gave you 3 opportunities to provide a summary of or link to this 'empirical evidence' which you claimed you were basing your inferences on. Your inference that the first cells were designed is based on your religious faith that this is the case. The designer to which you refer is God. You are a Creationist. You are avoiding the request for this allegedly 'empirical data' because no such data exists. Your attempts at appeal to authority have failed miserably, as you keep making mistakes in your citations. It was revealed by kjkent that you did not even read the work which you were citing, but were instead pulling quotes off of wikipedia.com. You then tried to claim that you had empirical data which supported your design theories. You were asked to cite them and you tried to change the subject. ID/Creation is a faith-based belief. Religion is a private matter and we live in a society which is secular in its public face. ID/Creation has been shown to be an attempt by radical theists to remake society 'in a manner more consistent with theistic ideals'. ID is Creation rebranded. Thread Closed.