Optional, I disagree with a lot of people on this site, but you would probably be the only one I consider a fully fledged fucking idiot.
Yes, a "certain" amount. That's the point. No one ever said money wasn't important for happiness, only that it wasn't all important, or as important as you are claiming it is. Would you agree that it's possible to be abundantly happy on an average working salary, working a 40hour week? I certainly believe it is. You asked me what if someone dropped 1 billion into my lap? Well, for starters, no is actually going to do that, and I don't think posing it as a hypothetical really has any value either; because much of the "happiness value" of having a lot of money, I think, comes from having earnt it. In my case, I come from a quite wealthy family in Argentina. I could go back there and live like a king (by Argentine standards). But I just don't feel any compulsion to. So it's really not the having the money -- as I said, I didn't do anyting to earn it, I was born into it -- alone that makes one happy, it's the progressive improvement in one's own condition, or the perception that one's own condition is, or is likely or able to, improve. You might say that I just made your case for you; that since obtaining more money leads to the perception that the condition of your life will or can improve means that we should all therefore do everything we possibly can to get more money. On an individual basis, which is where I see you coming from, that stands to reason. But I am looking at it more from a societal perspective. And in that case, I think it's a fallacy of composition -- what's true for the one isn't true for the whole -- to prescribe getting rich(er) as the panacea for happiness; it simply isn't possible for everyone to get rich.* I believe it's a question we, as societies, need to answer: what are the determinants of happiness and how can we, collectively, create such a society -- a social system -- in which those needs requirements for happiness can be best satisfied. Sorry to keep coming back to political philosophy, but it's not like I first lean to the left and then look at the world; I look first and then lean. * Indeed, even if it were possible, if everyone is rich, that itself detracts from, deflates the "happiness" factor of being rich. Eg, driving a Ferrari loses a lot of its gloss if everyone has one. I would call it a "failing" of the human pysche that what drives us to do more, to have more -- under the guise of seeking "happiness" -- is simply our vanity; the keeping up with (beating!) the Joneses effect. There can be no doubt that humans are driven by dissatisfaction. (I wouldn't be surprised if there was some genetic, "survival of the fittest" programming that is the source of this. ie, being richer, more powerful than the next man, supposedly, increases your chances of survival and the survival of your offspring, also making you a more attractive potential mate.) I know that "value is in scarcity" is an unalterable aspect of the universe we live in, and I don't seek to deny reality, but I do think it's possible that, by working together, we can overcome the effects of our frailties.
Quote from alfonso: Yes, a "certain" amount. That's the point. No one ever said money wasn't important for happiness, only that it wasn't all important, or as important as you are claiming it is. Would you agree that it's possible to be abundantly happy on an average working salary, working a 40hour week? I certainly believe it is. # Maybe for some. But having to work 40 hours a week # alone makes me unhappy. That steals a huge percentage # of my life away, when I could be pursuing things # that truly bring me joy. I sit at work each day wishing # I was outside doing something else on a beautiful day, # instead of pounding away at a keyboard. You asked me what if someone dropped 1 billion into my lap? Well, for starters, no is actually going to do that, and I don't think posing it as a hypothetical really has any value either; because much of the "happiness value" of having a lot of money, I think, comes from having earnt it. In my case, I come from a quite wealthy family in Argentina. I could go back there and live like a king (by Argentine standards). But I just don't feel any compulsion to. So it's really not the having the money -- as I said, I didn't do anyting to earn it, I was born into it -- alone that makes one happy, it's the progressive improvement in one's own condition, or the perception that one's own condition is, or is likely or able to, improve. # Your are different than most. What percentage of americans # would jump at the chance of never having to work at # their job again. 90%? 95%? # I bet the vast majority can think of something they would # want to do more than work. You might say that I just made your case for you; that since obtaining more money leads to the perception that the condition of your life will or can improve means that we should all therefore do everything we possibly can to get more money. # I actually don't believe this. I just need "enough" money # to buy me the freedom I want. On an individual basis, which is where I see you coming from, that stands to reason. But I am looking at it more from a societal perspective. And in that case, I think it's a fallacy of composition -- what's true for the one isn't true for the whole -- to prescribe getting rich(er) as the panacea for happiness; it simply isn't possible for everyone to get rich.* # Not interested in this debate. ( A different one ). I believe it's a question we, as societies, need to answer: what are the determinants of happiness and how can we, collectively, create such a society -- a social system -- in which those needs requirements for happiness can be best satisfied. Sorry to keep coming back to political philosophy, but it's not like I first lean to the left and then look at the world; I look first and then lean. # Different debate. * Indeed, even if it were possible, if everyone is rich, that itself detracts from, deflates the "happiness" factor of being rich. Eg, driving a Ferrari loses a lot of its gloss if everyone has one. # I disagree. If everyone had a ferrari, I would still want one. # Because they are FUN! I don't keep up with the joneses. # That has never brought me happiness. # If no one had to work, and we could all pursue what # really brought joy to each and every one of us, then I # think that would be great. ( Obvious technical problems there ) I would call it a "failing" of the human pysche that what drives us to do more, to have more -- under the guise of seeking "happiness" -- is simply our vanity; the keeping up with (beating!) the Joneses effect. There can be no doubt that humans are driven by dissatisfaction. (I wouldn't be surprised if there was some genetic, "survival of the fittest" programming that is the source of this. ie, being richer, more powerful than the next man, supposedly, increases your chances of survival and the survival of your offspring, also making you a more attractive potential mate.) I know that "value is in scarcity" is an unalterable aspect of the universe we live in, and I don't seek to deny reality, but I do think it's possible that, by working together, we can overcome the effects of our frailties. # I just don't care how I compare to my neighbor. # I just want enough money for complete freedom. # If I can do the things that bring me the most joy in life, # each and every day, instead of working, I could care less # if my neighbor is worth 100 trillion dollars. # Each person should think carefuly about what truly # makes them happy in life. Then they can objectively # come up with a price tag to accomplish this. # Some people will have incredibly high price tags, and # some incredibly low. The amount of money required # for serious happiness is going to vary between people. # I have some fairly expensive things I like to do, so # my price tag will be a little higher than a guy who just # wants to cruise on his 12 speed every day touring # the country. ( Armstrong? ) # Some people actually LOVE their work. They in, general, need # the least amount of money, because they don't # need a large sum of money simply to AVOID work. # Maybe one guys dream is to fly a jet fighter around several # days a week. Hey, if you got 20 million bucks laying around, # go for it. # peace # axeman