If someone wants to check out -- LET THEM!

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by aphexcoil, Sep 26, 2003.

  1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3142246.stm

    This is just stupid. I don't understand why humans can't be more compassionate towards another life. If someone determines their life is too hard or that they want to end their own life, they should have that choice.

    If someone is left blind, mute and paralyzed and they want to end their life -- let them!

    What's the problem?
  2. ....well it gets kind of sticky when all of the sudden some gal bumps off her sugar daddy but claims ' he wanted to die"....now give me the insurance.....where do you draw the line?
  3. Well if he's telling the doctors he wants to die, why should his insurance policy prevent that?
  4. ***If someone is left blind, mute and paralyzed and they want to end their life -- let them!***

    Hell yeah! And they should be able to sell their organs to guys like Walter Payton , who WANTED TO LIVE, but died needlessly waiting for an organ transplant.
  5. Murder is murder. I don't see where legalizing assisted suicide would change anything.

    As for the insurance, even now, (or at least when Merrill Lynch insisted I study for and take the insurance license exam 18 years ago or so), policies pay on suicide deaths after a two year "waiting period". So again, nothing would change.

    Personally I do not like the concept of assisted suicide. Just like I do not like the idea of abortion. But I also do not believe the law should have the power to take the choices from those who's lives it affects.

    When my wife was dying of cancer, the day the doctor told her there was no hope and he was stopping treatment, her first words were something to the effect that she wanted to call Dr. Kevorkian. After a few minutes of hysteria, she settled down and over the following few days became even more resolute in her determination to hang on as long as possible. (which turned out to only be two weeks). But I can see how people just do not wish to suffer. I was amazed at her ability to put up the fight she did. The treatment was worse than the disease.

    If she did not have a 10 year old son, maybe her will would not have been so strong to fight. And to suffer the treatments.

    Whatever; each case is unique. And each person should have the right to die with what THEY consider dignity. She was lucky in a way in that her mental faculties were fine until the end. And her bodily functions were as well. But that is not always the case.

    When you are in constant pain and can't think straight, and can't control your bladder or your bowels, or your muscles; when you can't eat or breath or wipe your ass without assistance, and there is no medical help available, then maybe it is your right to ask for help "checking out". To "die with dignity".

    I don't know, and I am glad I don't have to make these kinds of decisions. But I can't see how anyone can take this decision out of the hands of those who suffer. They are legally condemned to continuing to suffer. Is that right?

    I wish I knew. I admit I don't. And I am glad I don't have to make decisions like this. But I just don't think the decisions must be left to God in all cases. He is not the one suffering.

    Tough call. But I don't see how it should be left to politicians. Or to religious organizations. Or the alliance of the two as the case may be.

  6. i'm a huge supporter of this. in one way or another, it will happen eventually (legalization)...
  7. God, RS, I'm so sorry to hear that. It must have been a really hard time period for you. I remember how traumatic it was for me when my father had his heart attack. Fortunately, he survived and got bypass surgery.

    I'm so sorry you had to experience that. :(
  8. Interestingly, when and if assisted suicide (or suicide itself) becomes "legal", you will most assuredly not hear the term "legalized". Especially prior to the change of law as it is argued by the proponents of making it "legal". The term you will hear is "decriminalization". What's the difference? As far as I can tell one (legalization) sounds as if it is an endorsement of the act itself. The other just makes it not be a crime anymore.

    You say you are a "huge supporter" of this. But what I believe you really mean is you are a supporter of letting people make their own choices. You are not encouraging people to commit (or assist in) suicide. Same with other legislated morality. Drugs, abortion, alchohol, sodomy, prostitution, etc. Anything that is a "moral" crime. Usually referred to as "victimless" crimes.

    So what you "support" in your "huge" way is a right to choose. What you support is freedom. Generally from organized religion. At least that is what I believe you mean. I certainly don't want to put words in your mouth. If I am wrong, then by all means correct me.

    Personally, I am repulsed by abortion (unless there is risk to the mother or if the fetus is not viable). I am strongly opposed to abortion for too many reasons to list. But I am NOT in favor of making it a crime again. As far as I am concerned, it is none of my business if a woman wants an abortion. Would I rather she did not? Yes. I would rather an unwanted child be born and adopted by those who want children and have fertility problems (for example).

    Same with drugs, same with suicide, same with prostitution and sodomy. None of which I want anything to do with , but none of which affect me if someone else is involved in these acts. I see these things as not being criminal acts. Of course abortion is the one thing that can be argued to actually have a victim. The fetus. And ironically, it is the one "moral crime" that has been legalized in our lifetimes. Why abortion and not drugs? (especially marijuana). Why not prostitution? Why not the unenforceable "crime" of sodomy?

    Answer? In most cases organized religion. Plain and simple. Abortion got legalized because it was too common, there were too many women who expressed their desire to have their right to choose. Illegal abortions, which were almost as common at the time of Roe v. Wade as the use of marijuana is today (ok, an exageration to make a point, but very common indeed) were performed under insanely dangerous conditions all to often. Which added up to the issue being decided at a time that was just right. Women's lib., the sexual revolution, distrust of the government (Watergate going on; Vietnam having just ended badly), all of it coinciding just perfectly to result in the legalization of what was a crime for so long. The "perfect storm" effect.

    All of this means what? That religions dictate our laws? Obviously they do. Which means our separation of church and state is not a concept that has held up very well. And worse more recently as the nation drifts to the right.

    How did it happen that the consumption of alchohol was not only made illegal just 80 or so years ago, but it was made illegal as part of our Constitution!!!?? (Fucking amazing!!).

    Now we have a President that seems to cater to the religious right. OK, he puts his personal beliefs into his work, which while not in the spirit of the Constitution is fine with most people. Doesn't even bother me much. Actually wouldn't bother me at all if he were to just say a prayer, cross himself or do whatever it is he does, and then do his job. But when he has the opportunity to stack the Supreme Court with Justices who will do the same, (and he will if given the chance), then we will be in for a serious and essentially permanent problem. We will be stuck with any new appointments for a very very long time.

    So GG, as much as you hope for the decriminalization of assisted suicide, I would not hold my breath if I were you (or me). Because unless the political climate changes dramatically in the next year, forget about the decriminalization of ANY "moral crimes" in our lifetimes.

    Hell, we wont even have stem cell research at all if things continue on the path already taken. Why progress if we can regress in the name of religion?

    (Here come the arguments...we even know from whom they will come).

  9. Thanks Aphie...yes, it was a very rough time. And even I who lived through it still cannot wrap my mind around how hard it had to be for my son who was 10 at the time. He never did talk about his feelings much. I took him to a therapist after his mom died, but he didn't have any interest in going or talking about it with anyone. Not then, and not since. I was worried for a long time. I really did not see how he could get through it and be normal.

    But he did make it through. I guess we all have it in us to overcome the worst adversity.

    At the risk of raising the ire of my pal Max, I will indeed talk about myself here for a moment. (Or maybe Max will actually revel in this so he can harp on how I talked about myself...either way, who cares?).

    Anyway, I think the proudest moment of my life was earlier this month. My son finished boot camp at the Navy's training base in Great Lakes, Ill.

    I went to the graduation ceremony. It was on a Thursday (Sept. 4). There were almost 600 kids in his graduating class. After the ceremony, the kids all got "liberty", which means they were allowed to leave the base, but had to be back each night by 9 pm or so. So through that weekend, we (the parents) could spend time with our sons and daughters (there were a lot of girls) and take them off base. But unlike "leave" which is more like a vacation, while on "liberty" the kids were supposed to stay in uniform and sleep in their quarters (they call them ships even though they are buildings like dorms far from any water).

    So after 9 weeks of eating Navy food, my son's big thing was to have sushi. We found an "all you can eat" sushi place at lunchtime that Saturday. We are sitting there eating. My son is wearing his "dress whites"....( a white uniform with a black bandana kind of thing, one of those funny round navy hats, and patent leather shoes).

    A little girl about 7 or 8 years old walks over to our table. She says (I am sure rehearsed by her parents...I mean this was a LITTLE girl): "Hi, I want to thank you for serving our country".

    My son was at a loss for words for a few seconds, and then said to her "It is my honor and privilege ma'am".

    The little girl smiled and walked back to her parents. My son smiled and said to me: "Wow! That made 9 weeks of hell worth it!".

    I was so proud, I almost cried with pride. Really!

    So Aphie, I guess my point is that we all have it in us to deal with whatever tragedies life sends our way. I can't begin to imagine anything worse than being a 10 year old boy and seeing your mom die in such a horrible way. Six months of suffering and misery. Yet somehow, my kid turned out to be just perfect. It wasn't my parenting skills for sure. It wasn't anything but the human strength to get through life no matter what.

    So we as humans really are a strong species. We have impractically complicated brains and thought processes. Yet somehow we can get through the seemingly impossible.

    Well I just had to tell that little story. It was, as I said, maybe the highlight of my life. Didn't even have anything to do with me really. But that is what happens when you become a parent. Your kids become more important to you than you are to yourself.

  10. i can't say i really disagree much. you are right in your opinion of my beliefs. i am for FREEDOM. and i'm sick of all these archaic moral laws stemming from religion. I CAN'T BUY BEER ON SUNDAY WHERE I LIVE! THAT IS THE EPITOME OF RELIGIOUS C-R-A-P! this may bother people, but religion is DYING and THANK "GOD" FOR THAT!

    this is a little OT, but... although i'm not a genuine republican, i usually vote for republicans because i'm very much against high taxes and social programs. but i don't like republicans because they are usually plagued by strong religious beliefs. i've voted for republicans anyway because i figure the left won't let the right get too crazy with religious nonsense.

    WELL THIS IS NO MORE. i'm a registered independent and unless an election is expected to be close between a republican and a democrat (in which case i'd vote republican), I'M VOTING LIBERTARIAN, because that is truly where most of my beliefs are.

    #10     Sep 27, 2003