Hi Barth, My point is, the reason why Gibbon and Julian are historical figures, means Jesus is not. Furthermore, reasons which make things historical are missing in what Gibbon and Julian say about Jesus. It means Jesus as a real person is still not historically based . In your post you mentioned 2 historical figures, (Gibbon and Julian) so I use them as examples. If you were asked to prove both of them are historical, that is â once real and therefore not fictional people â for each historical figure or event you would retrieve separate and independent validated evidence which provides incontrovertible confirmation of whether , or in what way, they are historical. Those then make the reason (demonstrable confirmation) for their being historical. If you were then asked to prove as historical what both those historical figures themselves claimed, you would have to likewise produce the same value evidence as reason which showed them to be historical figures. Correspondingly separate and independent validated evidence to support what they say. The subject of what they wrote about is not itself necessarily historical just because they, as proven historical figures, wrote it. The characters in the Bible are not historical just because they are in the Bible. That makes reason (separate and independent) why historical figures and historical events are indeed historical . If they do not have that reason for being historical then they are not actually historical. You will not be able to justifiably and legitimately give any of those same reasons of value which confirm Gibbon and Julian as historical people, to the fictional Jesus person as described in the Bible. Non of those reasons are there to make Jesus actually historical as they are to make both Gibbon and Julian so. You wonât find the reason for King Arthur either. Until you do then bottom line, Jesus cannot be shown to be anything more real than a fictional character in a story, in a book. Just like King Arthur is. Both can only really be described historical as fictional characters. But the word for that is legend or fabled. If Bible Jesus is a(n) historical person, then so is King Arthur and so is Thor and so is just about any other fictional character. Jesus, King Arthur and Thor would in that state of affairs make the word historical , the meaning of it, the reasons for it and what it really is, quite pointless. Therefore my point is , because of all the significant reasons actual people and events existed in the real world and therefore are called historical...... Jesus is not.
Dead horse, meet stick. Isn't it more fun bashing peiltheist instead of ragging on some agnos about semantics? Just a thought...
You are moving in too quickly in for the attack Vhehn. I think a working definition of the word "devil" would be in order first. A Devil more powerful than God? Interesting question. Does that mean that it is possible for a finite sum to exceed an infinite sum or for one infinite sum to exceed another infinite sum? How shall we find out? Forget the theoretical objective mathematical approach. Get empirical! Find the Devil and interview him. According to my extensive research in Devinology the Devil's most well known name now is not Satan, but Allah, and his bible for his submissive little evil demons is the Qur'an as put forth by his Lead Apostle the Peaceful Murderer, Robber, Rapist, and Child Molester Mohammed PBUH.
why make it so complicated? the christian god is described as being all powerful. he is also described as wanting to eliminate the devil. if he is why does he not? Epicurus: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Hi all, I got in late on this but I'll put in my .02 Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. The name 'Devil' derives from the Greek word diabolos, which means 'slanderer' or 'accuser', while 'Satan' means 'enemy' or 'adversary'. The Bible also describes him as a liar, a murderer, and 'the tempter'. Thus, he hates but also deceives; he can also appear good, like an 'angel of light'. So when you hate or want to falsely and maliciously accuse someone...that's classic devil behaviour. So is envying or lying. And, when you are simply tempted to do something wrong, or tempting someone else that is too. If he doesn't exist, why do we need prisons, government......or lawyers?
Great.... you reference someone else's mythology to support your own mythology. Nice try at hijacking the thread.
The Bible describes God that way too. A mean vengeful jealous murdering megalomaniac. You have read the Bible?
He doesn't deny His power or His wrath... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things .Isaiah 45:7 **evil? God is all powerful...and He can destroy. Why?......because of ungodliness For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Romans 1:18 What meaning does a life without God Have? 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 What does God REALLY expect of us? 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13,14 ...and those commandments are.... Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. And how can we possibly do that? 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:28,29 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. There you have it. We lie, cheat, steal, envy, murder, slander, curse, hate, start wars, kill babies and puff ouselves up with pride and God hates all that. God revealed His great wrath and His great love all at the same time when he sent His only begotten son to die in your place and mine. He wants to fill you with His Spirit and to fellowship with you. We have the choice; believe or reject.