His 5th point: "Then I suppose if I'm wrong about gods 5. you will see me burn forever." (Please don't think I ever said "burn forever". ) ----------------------------------- I am still working on this question/point, that is: "What happens if a person doesn't get freed of this world of (spiritual) darkness and (physical) death?" As I'm still working on growing my understanding of all of this (A to E above.) a reply to this will have to wait. I have found out that: 1. Jesus is indeed the bridge and path to salvation (that was a shocker to me!). 2. "Heaven" is a state of being -not a place. 3. The work on the cross was a Divine gift. I would like to thank-you for your post upon which I have based this thread. I understand the pain and anger that you and many others feel with the judgemental holier-than-thou attitude. For what it is worth I encourage you to keep seeking. Look for the good that others do. If you see someone in pain offer a smile and kind word of genuine compassion. time for bed...
newwurldmn I think you know that accepting Jesus is only the first step, and since you know then you are being argumentative without merit. Jesus our Lord and Savoir said: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. " If you are saying God is a liar you are braver than I. ------------- John 14 (1) Believe in God and also believe also in me. (6)“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (7) If you had known me, you would have known my Father also (15) “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (16) And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17even the Spirit of truth, ------ If you stop reading at John3:15 "the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” thinking you are good to go... then you are not listening to Jesus or respecting the work he did on the cross. Why do you think did he spend time teaching and preaching the Way, giving sermons and parables? Do you think he was mentally deficient and had the "Venn diagram wrong?" Jesus did not say: "the path is hard and narrow and few will find it" for nothing. "the man who puts his hand to the plow and turns back is not worthy to be a disciple of mine." So this gets to the heart of those who self-label as Christian but are not followers of Jesus. -------- Blessings and keep reading. If you are in Christ then go to God in prayer and ask if only saying "Lord", Lord" is enough. "Accepting Jesus" means the accepting the whole package (not just the easy bit.)
i am agreeing with you. living a good life does not grant you a spot in heaven according to christians. embracing jesus christ does. in fact you live a terrible life and your second to last breadth can be i accept jesus and you are all good.
“Matthew 7:21-23 New International Version True and False Disciples 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day,‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” What is the Father’s desire? “Jesus Calls Matthew 9As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at his tax collector’s booth. “Follow me and be my disciple,” Jesus said to him. So Matthew got up and followed him. 10Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. 11But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with such scum?c” 12When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.” 13Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’d For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.” Something about not wanting works but mercy? I spent time at a gun range with people wearing crosses talking about democrats needed a good flogging. So much love and mercy! “Matthew 7:15-20 MSG “Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don’t be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.
Yes. (1/2 yes). Salvation is a free gift of God. We don't earn it - we accept it. My thought is that people stop at this point -The 'Pauline' version, set by 'the church' some 1900 years ago. Of course Paul goes on to say that if you are really reborn in spirit in Christ then in that new heart you desire to live in the Love and the Light, that is you do not desire your old life in the darkness. Paul (Saul of Taurus) phrases things from his background as a Pharisee. You know what Christ said about the Pharisees. Saul was not an ordinary Pharisee. He had deep loathing of Jesus and his followers and having killed 2 disciples was on his way armed with a letter to arrest and kill more disciples. The "Jews" (this equals the Jews' clerical leadership - and not all, and certainly not the average person who loved Jesus) hated Jesus with a deep loathing and anger. Jesus showed up their hypocrisy - their love of money, of position, of show praying in public etc. You praise me with your lips your hearts are far from me. If your father was Abraham you would know me, but you are liars and murders as your father -satan. The difficulty is the church took over Jesus's work&message to reshaped things for money, power and control => evil priests never change their evil ways. ---------sacrifice to 'atone for sins'--- Now the Jews were and are very big on sacrifices to atone for sins. Turning to Exodus we see that prior to Moses ascending to mount Sinai he had the people make a blood convent. This is the 602 (?) laws and regulations 'from God'. They all agreed. Moses then sacrificed and lamb and sprinkled them with blood, making it a blood covenant -which cannot be broken except by death. Mount Sinai was in darkness and flashing lightening and so the people were afraid to go up and pleaded with Moses to go up and talk with 'God'. So Moses goes up get the stone tablets and comes back down 40 days later to find the people had given up and ask Aaron - Moses's sidekick and more articulate assistant from Pharaoh days - to make them a golden calf to worship. Moses is furious seeing them worship a golden calf idol, smashes the tablets (copy1). 'God' is furious - his wrath burned - and wanted to wipe them off the earth and start afresh. Moses does some bargaining and arguing with 'God'...that everyone else will think God failed 'his chosen people' led them out of Egypt to die in the desert. --- what's the point? ----- Every since breaking their blood covenant Jews are fixated on blood sacrifices to stay off judgement for their sins. ('atone' for their sins). Sure killing a scapegoat will please 'God"(sarc). So Saul=Paul a Jew - and Messianic Jews - are all about the crucifixion part - atone for sins with sacrifice. So we get the saved by the blood, etc., etc. (Jews don't believe Jesus rose from the dead). =============== Dying is not it. It is dying and resurrecting. This is how Jesus defeated death and defeated Satan. ============= 1. Before Jesus's work on the cross salvation was impossible. (Jesus said none 'born of woman' have made it. See where He speaks of John the baptist who though the greatest of men 'born of woman' is less that the lowest in 'Heaven'.) 2. So yes our salvation is made possible, by believing that Jesus is of God, died and rose making it possible to get free. -------- I have checked on: "Does loving Jesus include following his teachings?" and got yes. ---- two meanings of repent - 1. Repent means turning away. (from your old life) 2. Repent - of your sins is/can mean something different. (sort of - there is semantics around the meaning of the word 'sin') -- though probably a very sincere heartfelt deathbed repentance (so on one's deathbed you are only going to be doing #2.) perhaps is enough? (certainly that is the churches -both catholic and non position). The difficulty is that the church/satan wants you to believe this (one) physical life is it. Utter nonsense. This is supportive of love of money.power,position - worldly riches. Just imagine if the church supported that one must also following Jesus's teachings - as Jesus taught us: - get rid of all your money and possessions, your loves and hates in this world of darkness, don't call anyone here on earth 'father' for there is only one Father the Father in heavens, no one is higher than anther (tosses out kneeling and kissing a Cardinal's ring!), when you pray speak directly to the father (no intermediators), and on and on and on, set no-one above me (including the pope as part of salvation.. loving god, loving each other, not loving the world and worldly things.. ..how awful for them - all that gold in the Vatican and lands, and the selling of indulgences - poof! ---------- On your point, I will have to pray on that - that accepting Jesus even with your dying breath is enough. (Certainly the Church wants you to accept this).
Let's suppose I live the most moral life possible but without any belief that dieties exist. According to Christianity, what will happen to me when I die and I find I was wrong? Maybe other religions have other beliefs about what happens to me after my death.....
Dear tomorton, Thank-you for your question. (As an aside I have changed over the last few months in that someone helped me by praying the Holy Spirit to me and I have been going deeper into my studies and had some revelations/insights that have surprised me.) I will not answer your question from the viewpoint of "christianity" rather what I know to be true. Humankind is trapped in this world of darkness and death and no-one has been able to get free - no matter how 'good' they are - the entanglement is too deep. Different religions have struggled with this question and many have come to similar answers, though all this answers are what 'we' humans can do to try to achieve freedom. The problem is that 'we' cannot do it on our own - no one no matter how saintly or devote in whatever religion/method etc. God saw our dilemma and through his love for us - all humanity - created a way to make it possible. 'We' so of course here I mean our eternal soul, was given the Divine gift of Free will - we can choose left or right. By over-indulgence in the senses (food, sex, etc) and then greed, envy, hatred, murder etc etc we became entrapped. One cannot influence the physical realm from the spiritual (I'm simplifying). So God sent his 'Son' into the physical realm to break the hold - conquer death. (Of course I mean spiritual death). This was done by Jesus dying and resurrecting from the dead (physical death of the body). In so doing He created a "bridge" between this world on death and darkness into the spiritual realm. That is the way -the only way - for us to be able to get free - something humankind has not been able to do. The key is one must choose the bridge, (I am the Truth the Way and the Light and none shall come to God but by me.) It is not about religion - it is about a personal relationship, it is accepting Jesus, God's love and a way to get free. The enormous difficulty is that this has been hijacked by church and made into a religion. To get free one needs to: Believe Jesus is Divine Believe He was sent from 'Heaven' by God to make it possible to be set free. Died and rose again 3 days later, and then follow his teachings. To be very clear, following His teachings are evidence of our love - if one follows His teachings - but do not Believe in Him, then you can't get free. Through your own free will you must choose to accept the Divine free gift ("the bridge" -I am the good shepherd, I am the sheepfold gate, my sheep know my voice and follow me and I will lead them out to save pasture ). Following his teachings are incredible hard for you must turn your back on this world (the mundane world - he who wishes to save his life must lose it, meaning he who wants to get free "save his life" and gain eternal life must give up this world, this life the life in spiritual darkness and physical death), so once accepting Him we are given the Holy Spirit to help us teach us guide us strengthen us. But remember it is not about "Christianity", Buddism, Catholism, Janisim, etc. and nor can your 'works' meaning - doing good on their own 'save' meaning break free, you. Jews and Muslims believe in a scale and if your good works exceed your bad then you are Ok. Not so. ==== Please understand that this current life is not necessarily the last - so you may have more time - ... getting into "end times etc." - BUT YOU MAY NOT. =======> here we go... Here is the question I asked and the answer I received: "Is there a place of torment and suffering, outside of this world, where those who are not saved will go?" Answer: "Yes." ====== So that is the answer to your question. ---------------------- On a more positive note, all can benefit, right here and right now, by accepting Jesus and having a personal relationship with Him. (That applies to anyone of any 'religion') I watched this this evening and when I watched it I thought of you - so it may be for a reason. https://www. youtube.com/watch?v=JaAUnApPp9c I hope my post is of some help to you (or background readers). Don't forget to read the 4 gospels - start with John and also the letter of James (Jesus's brother). It is for the Holy Spirit to help you not me. So posts on a board will not do it. You must do the reading yourself.
Romans 2:12-16 “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obeythe law who will be declared righteous.14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.” I find it intriguing two of the biggest miracles happened to non Jews in the Old Testament. “ I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.” 28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this.29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff.” Under Christianity those who live a moral life appear like they know God in their hearts. The arguments of what happens is pure conjecture.
Thank you for these thoughts. It seems if I die later tonight I am condemed to eternal torment and suffering because I do not believe in the existence of gods. I am prepared to take my chances. But the conclusion does not make me feel very at ease with Christians who embrace this sort of vindictive and judgemental belief system.