Elder made diffamation against Gann (see http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23716&perpage=6&pagenumber=1) but Gann is dead and cannot answer. But even when traders are still alive people don't stop making nasty diffamation. Here's an archive of Larry William's critics page (it doesn't exist any more on his new site so I copy and paste from my archive): YOU CHEATED WHEN YOU WON THE ROBBINS WORLD CUP TRADING CHAMPIONSHIP This is the most ludicrous of the allegations. Internet authors hiding behind bogus names, have claimed there were two accounts the winning trades when in one account the losing trades into another. If I would've known which trades were going to be losing trades why would I've taken them to begin with? Perhaps more importantly the NFA and CFTC both had all my trading records, they too were looking for chicanery, double accounts or whatever. They had all my trading records for about 18 months, went through the brokerage firm with a fine tooth comb. ------ Whole questions below: I am totally perplexed as to why particular people seem to be fond of criticizing me on a personal basis. Maybe, it's just that it's easier to be critical than to be correct. I really don't know, but here's my response to things you may have heard about me; No. 1 IF YOU'RE SO GOOD WHY YOU GIVE SEMINARS? I give seminars, write books and have a videotape series for several reasons. First of all it's quite profitable; I get paid for doing it. I never know as a trader when I will make money, it may be this month or maybe a few months from now it's an unknown. Seminars and such amount to steady income. Additionally, I know, from the huge number positive responses I've received over the years, that what I teach has a value and has made a substantial difference in many people's lives. Frankly, I think I'm good at this business of helping people and teaching them... and their responses have validated that viewpoint. Many of my students have been with me for anywhere from 10 to 30 years, some are now second generation's, fathers have passed me down to their sons! So, I assume I'm doing something right. Several of my students have become successful money managers, authors, brokers and publishers I would point out that royalties from my books have supported a scholarship program at the University of Oregon for almost 30 years. I speak for free on a frequent basis to clubs, colleges and market associations. No. 2 WILLIAMS BLEW UP, TRADING A FUND IN 1987! There is some truth here. In 1986, 87 and 88 I managed a substantial amount of money. A significant number of the people came out way a head. Most notably Susan B. Kringle, who had opened her trading account with $60,000 and walked away with approximate $540,000. She then sued me claiming she should have made $63 million. Many people, and I mean many, made a substantial amount of money with my trading during that time. As new money in and the crash or 87 developed, I lost money for investors. No doubt about that, it happened. People were not blown out though. . . as I recall the worst damage done was about 40 percent decline in a few of the individual trading accounts. The NFA brought an action against me at that time, which I believe was highly politically motivated. After all I had just run from the floor, and was selected by my fellow commodity trading advisers against their hand picked "boy". From day one, I knew this was not a good thing to have done... at my first NFA meeting was only one not to have a nameplate at the table for we sat, repeatedly from the head of the NFA would not acknowledge me or shake my hand. The message was pretty clear, eventually they brought an action against me. Eventually I settled, neither admitting nor denying their charges and paid a $12,000 fine. In light of the hundreds of thousands of dollars the NFA has fined other people, notably brokers and trading advisors, this was not even a slap on the wrist. No. 3 YOU CHEATED WHEN YOU WON THE ROBBINS WORLD CUP TRADING CHAMPIONSHIP This is the most ludicrous of the allegations. Internet authors hiding behind bogus names, have claimed there were two accounts the winning trades when in one account the losing trades into another. If I would've known which trades were going to be losing trades why would I've taken them to begin with? Perhaps more importantly the NFA and CFTC both had all my trading records, they too were looking for chicanery, double accounts or whatever. They had all my trading records for about 18 months, went through the brokerage firm with a fine tooth comb. No. 4 WILLIAMS JUST DEVELOPS OPTIMIZED SYSTEMS THAT DON'T HOLD UP If this were true how could I possibly stay in this business as long as I have? How can I have won trading championship or my children won trading championship and numerous of my students have made millions of dollars and won trading championship's... using stuff doesn't work? I think the answer is obvious, let me also assure you I do not have the ultimate secrete to trading.... I think there are none.... I think there are tools and techniques we can use to beat the market. But is there a Holy Grail, and ultimate strategy are technique? I don't think so. I have never seen it. We are all different, what works for one person, be that my approach or, say Gann, does not work for the next guy. Speculating is a difficult business it takes an understanding, takes discipline, it takes dealing with yourself and a great deal of old-fashioned work. Even then I'm not always right, nor do I expect to be. But I can tell you this, my advisory letter, Commodity Timing, when I have published it has consistently made money. The longevity of my subscribers speaks to that point. Additionally, my subscription fee is perhaps the lowest in the entire industry, I don't run the newsletter to rip people off or make some gargantuan fortune. As those who know me know, that is not my style. No. 5 PROVE YOUR GOOD To this challenge I responded by creating The Million Dollar Challenge a series of trading seminars where I have traded $1 million of real money, in real-time and given attendees to the seminar 20 percent of the profits. So far, knock on wood, I have made about $750,000 doing this in eight or so presentations. I kind of thought this would put my critics rest...it doesn't seem to have. After all here I was in a roomful people, trading real money, real-time, no way there could be any hanky-panky and still these people are not satisfied. So be it. As one of my friends said, "Larry, just take this as a compliment, that you are important enough to have enemies". TO MY CRITICS I SAY THIS... Since 1973 have been willing to trade head-on head against any commodity trader anytime, any place. I've done this in trading championships, I've challenged people who claimed to be the greatest traders of the world be the here in America, or Germany, or Australia and I stand by that. If you think I am a washed up old man... then take me on trade against me... let's see who's good and who's not. The proof is in the pudding, and I'm willing to cook up my batch anytime any place. Let's get it on...man to man, one on one. I think that would go a lot further to demolishing Larry Williams, showing my true colors, than all these comments based on rumor and innuendo, Larry Williams