If we agree that stops are known and run on purpose to shake weak traders out of their positions, I have nothing further. You talk like you're a volume trader (8MM a month is more than I trade) and if you are, you must have a reason for stating that Market Makers are "getting their clocks cleaned". Evidence of that has yet to be shown to me. I'm always willing to admit I'm wrong as soon as convincing evidence of my errors is presented. Happens all the time in the markets. In any case, I wish you good trading.
This is where I am 100% with jd7419. The idea that the 'computers' are responding to your individual 100 share order hitting the market is ridiculous. The reason that the market tends to turn when you enter is that you are like all the other beginners - you enter at exactly the wrong time. This is a well known phenomenon.
HOWEVER, market makers see where a group of stops are and will initiate stops;to an extent. it happens alot right before a big move and especially between 11 and 1:00.
Maybe they are not responding to "my" individual 100 share order but they are responding to "a" 100 share order. I don't know what gave you the idea that I am a beginner, I have been doing this for 12 years. How long have you been observing market behavior? Anyway I am done with this topic and will go back to my basic status of being mostly a lurker on this site. Echo
Metro, I trade at schonfeld through a sub llc. Not the big one there. I have been with the same guys for 8 years.
Tradernik, I don't know for sure because I don't have the data, but anecdotaly mm's are not doing well. My friends brother in law was a mm for 8 years but lost his job 3 years ago and now trades for himself. This was because his firm largely moved their mm business to automation. Two more traders I know that have since left schonfeld lost their jobs at Knight trading which has also mostly automated their mms according to them. They tell me that market making in the pink sheets is still a way to stay in the business. Again I don't know for sure but traditional market making during the 90's and early part of this decade is mostly gone. That MM symbol on your level 2 that is messing with you is most likely an automated program. I do realize that specialists are still on the floor but their time is coming also based on the volume trends on the nyse ( ecns trading 60% plus of the volume on the exchange). Quants now make up a bigger part of the big banks mm operations. That is a fact and a trend that will most likely lead to most mm's either adjusting to a more mathematical backround or exiting the business.
I like the good laughs one of these conspiracy threads provides. Yes there are a lot of market making firms who are hurting. It began with decimalization and its gotten worse from there for them. The back side of that is that its created a bevy of soft money and payment for order flow deals. In all but the thinnest traded stocks the days of walking the stocks up and down are over and have been for a long time. The barriers for entry into market making have been shrunk so much that they now provide liquidity across the board and there are very very few issues where there are only 1 or 2 market making firms in. Tell us conspiracy theorists when there is order flow and more then one or two market makers how does 1 market maker walk the stock down or up to fill your order without trading through the others markets and other order flow? By the way "painting the tape" or trading with yourself to mark your positions is a big no no and its easily caught.
what about the opposite? if you knew big money was about to enter on a stock, but it wasn't public information..is it front running/illegal?